#82 - Celebrating Every Day

Dan Shipper: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Talk Therapy, a podcast where two friends talk about their journey to start a media business together. I'm Dan Shipper.

Nathan Baschez: [00:00:06] And I'm Nathan Baschez and, uh, happy birthday to us.

Dan Shipper: [00:00:11] Everyday, baby. Everyday.

Nathan Baschez: [00:00:13] So, in the calendar for today, Friday, June 4th, which is not gonna be the same day that this comes out, but it is the day we're recording it, we've got a calendar invite that says, "Everyday." And why is that, Dan?

Dan Shipper: [00:00:26] It's because we incorporated on this day officially one year ago.

Nathan Baschez: [00:00:30] It's crazy.

Dan Shipper: [00:00:31] It is crazy.

Nathan Baschez: [00:00:32] It feels like yesterday. The funniest thing about it is that wasn't really, like, when we started working on this company-

Dan Shipper: [00:00:37] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:00:37] ... but it was when we incorporated it. And we already had, like, a pretty decent amount of revenue [laughs] by the time we did that. Just, like, going to our separate, like [inaudible 00:00:46] went to like my, I think Social Security number-

Dan Shipper: [00:00:49] [Laughs].

Nathan Baschez: [00:00:49] ... and my Stripe and super organizers went to your like, LLC under your Stripe or whatever, and then we like merged it all. We merged the assets and we moved in together.

Dan Shipper: [00:00:59] And had the baby, no prenup.

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:01] Yep. And it's funny, 'cause this was also when, um ... Maybe this is when we incorporated, we also flipped the switch on in sub that we used to have it where it was like, you could buy the bundle publication-

Dan Shipper: [00:01:12] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:12] ... which had our posts that we've manually copied and pasted, or you could buy, you know, them separately. And then around this time, beginning of June, 2020 was when we made it so it was just the bundle. And it was like one-

Dan Shipper: [00:01:25] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:25] ... it was bundle only.

Dan Shipper: [00:01:26] That was a scary moment a little bit for me. I remember being like ...

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:31] This guy is gonna drag me down.

Dan Shipper: [00:01:34] [Laughs].

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:34] We're attached now and I can't get out.

Dan Shipper: [00:01:36] Like, what am I gonna do? I'm trapped. But no, I remember feeling like, oh, what's- what's gonna happen if- if it's just a bundle versus $15 subscription or whatever.

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:44] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Dan Shipper: [00:01:45] Um, but yeah, it's- yeah, it's so funny because I can remember that- all that very clearly, but it also is like, I've aged so much over the last year.

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:52] Yeah. About seven years in the last year.

Dan Shipper: [00:01:53] [Laughs]. Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:55] I mean just visually we both are way ...

Dan Shipper: [00:01:57] I mean, yeah. Look at us. [Laughs]. No one can see us right now, but just ...

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:01] Not in good shape. No, I'm just kidding.

Dan Shipper: [00:02:02] Yeah. [Laughs].

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:02] We're like- we're like, handsome. But yeah, you know, dad vibes.

Dan Shipper: [00:02:05] Yeah. More distinguished. We'll say that.

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:07] Yeah, distinguished.

Dan Shipper: [00:02:08] Um, yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:08] A little bit grayed. I literally am finding gray hairs, like, honestly for the- in more frequency than I ever had before-

Dan Shipper: [00:02:13] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:13] ... um, around my temples.

So we did that. A couple weeks, you know, after this all happened a year ago, Tiago joined the bundle. That was the first thing besides you and me that was kind of like a big thing. We launched the original Napkin Math with Adam Keesling. There was a lot of stuff that went on about a year ago that was like, wow, we're like a real thing.

Dan Shipper: [00:02:32] Yeah. That Tiago thing was so interesting because ... And I think we have an episode about this from a year ago. So if you're listening to this now, you should go back and listen to that episode. But basically we launched it and then, remember, like nothing really happened. And we were very confused.

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:47] [Laughs].

Dan Shipper: [00:02:48] And we- and we spent like a while trying to figure out like why no one signed up. We were like, does no one like us anymore? Like what happened?

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:54] It just- like, a little bit happened.

Dan Shipper: [00:02:56] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:56] So we knew that it was like, something, but it was like way, way below our expectations.

Dan Shipper: [00:03:01] Yeah. And it was like one of those, um, is the modem plugged in situations?

Nathan Baschez: [00:03:04] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:03:04] Because like, what we learned is that he hadn't sent out the email to his list yet, which is where we usually get most of the growth from. And like four or five days after we initially launched it, he sent it to his list and it just completely popped.

Nathan Baschez: [00:03:16] Like, oh, there it is.

Dan Shipper: [00:03:16] It was this huge thing. Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:03:18] [Laughs].

Dan Shipper: [00:03:18] And it was like, wow, this is really gonna work.

Nathan Baschez: [00:03:20] That was very nice. Yeah. No, I feel like it's pretty amazing how ... I remember the biggest thing on our mind a year ago was like, what deal can we do that like, works?

Dan Shipper: [00:03:29] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:03:29] Because the hardest part about a bundle is like, you want people to have the upside and feel that it's fair and feel that it's like a viable alternative to like, doing it on their own. Where they get the benefits of being a part of a bundle, but they also get compensated in a way that accurately reflects the value they bring. And if they drive more value, that they get paid more in a very linear way in the same way it is when it's a standalone thing.

And in some ways it's a little bit of an impossible problem because people just pay us a dollar amount and we can never really know like what's in their heart or what's- what they value. It's like, you can measure their activity, you can ask them questions, have them fill out a survey. But like at some level it's like, everything is imperfect sort of.

Dan Shipper: [00:04:07] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Nathan Baschez: [00:04:08] But I think we got a pretty good system because last year, right around between now and maybe a couple months from now, a year ago, we like, basically ha- figured out a system that we added some complexity to, but like didn't fundamentally change.

Dan Shipper: [00:04:23] Yeah. I mean, and it's interesting because I feel like at that point it was like a conversation every day about, what is the deal? How do we iterate on it? What do we give to who? All that kind of stuff. And we were very worried about it. And to some extent we still are like thinking about it, but it hasn't been an active conversation. Cause like after that, it solidified in this way that I wasn't really expecting.

Nathan Baschez: [00:04:44] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Dan Shipper: [00:04:45] And now I think ... I mean, there's always room for changes and I think we'll- we'll update it over time, but I feel like we got it to a place where it worked well enough that we could do ... We did the first one, then we did the next like 10 or 12, you know?

Nathan Baschez: [00:04:55] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:04:56] And then we'll start to update it over time again. But it- it was- yeah, pretty solid for a year.

Nathan Baschez: [00:05:00] And I think like the other interesting thing is like, a year ago, I think who we thought of our target market was just like other people who already had sub stacks-

Dan Shipper: [00:05:10] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Nathan Baschez: [00:05:10] ... for writers. And I think to some extent that is still the target market, but I think we've really evolved. Like we've really narrowed, honestly. We've just found a lot of like kind of ... Who does this really work for?

Dan Shipper: [00:05:21] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:05:21] Like what is our real place? What is the value we provide? How do we structure it? And it feels like we sort of started to understand how important the community aspect of it is.

Dan Shipper: [00:05:31] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:05:32] It sounds kind of fluffy so I think we didn't focus on it that much early on, but what we've come to understand is like, if you feel like this is a place where you're supporting people, they're supporting you, they're helping you, you're helping them., it's just a way better ... Everything works a lot better. And for us to sort of like product manage our community almost, as like, part of our value proposition to writers-

Dan Shipper: [00:05:52] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:05:53] ... is we made a lot of progress on that, and we had no clue about that like a year ago.

Dan Shipper: [00:05:56] Yeah. Yeah. And when you say community, I think people think of like our Discord, which is our kind of reader community, and it is our writer community too. But I think it- it encompasses all of the connected tissue that we have between us and writers and- and readers, too, but-

Nathan Baschez: [00:06:09] And writers and each other.

Dan Shipper: [00:06:10] ... yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think at the beginning it was very much this like hub and spoke model-

Nathan Baschez: [00:06:15] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:06:15] ... where we talk to these writers who are in isolation from each other and they would just kind of talk to us every once in a while and we would just do the deal and then just like figure out, they'll just like do their thing.

Nathan Baschez: [00:06:24] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:06:25] Um, and that just- just really didn't work that well, it was not fun for anybody. And now it's kind of like, actually you do a deal with us. Like we meet with you a lot. We're talking to you all the time. You're meeting with other writers, you're hanging out in Discord. Like there's a feeling that you get that-

Nathan Baschez: [00:06:36] Right.

Dan Shipper: [00:06:36] ... um, it means to be part of every ... Um, and there's a crew of people that is around each other doing things together that is very different and so much fun. Like, just seeing the Discord filled with people that we work with is like, so rewarding to me, so regularly.

Nathan Baschez: [00:06:49] Yeah. And it makes a huge difference because I think that something that was more theoretical than when we wrote it, than it is now, is the idea that it's way better if you're writing for people who you admire, and admire you, and you know, and you feel like your first best readers are like, sort of comrades in a way. Way better than writing for randos on Twitter.

Dan Shipper: [00:07:08] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:08] [Laughs]. Randos on Twitter are great. Don't get me wrong. I love my Twitter people. That's all ... [Laughs]. But like, it's just hard because it's fickle, you know what I mean?

Dan Shipper: [00:07:16] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:16] Like you don't have an actual relationship.

Dan Shipper: [00:07:18] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:18] And I think it really helps to focus on people who see the best in you and understand like, the weird parts of what you're going for or whatever.

Dan Shipper: [00:07:27] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:27] Like I think it really helps.

Dan Shipper: [00:07:28] Yeah, totally. And the other thing that we were doing this time last year is we were raising money for the first time.

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:32] That's true.

Dan Shipper: [00:07:33] Um, and that was fun. It was fun. It was nerveracking. I had never done that before

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:36] I was about to say, Dan, like, are you lying? Like, where's the-

Dan Shipper: [00:07:38] No, no, no.

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:38] ... where's the person with the gun to your head? There wasn't fun.

Dan Shipper: [00:07:41] [Laughs].

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:41] You're like, the only person who's ever said fundraising was fun. [Laughs].

Dan Shipper: [00:07:44] Okay. It was like alternatively fun and extremely worrying to me basically.

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:48] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:07:49] Which is basically what this company is in general, anyways, so, um ... [Laughs].

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:52] [Laughs]. Just an extension of everything else. And we're going to look at the fun side.

Dan Shipper: [00:07:56] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:56] That's the side we choose to focus on.

Dan Shipper: [00:07:58] It was fun because it worked out, and I think we found people that we were really excited about. And-

Nathan Baschez: [00:08:02] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:08:02] ... um, for me, like, I had never really raised before and so getting to go through that process was fun. And I got like, a little bit of a sense of like, a little bit of mastery or whatever over that part of it, I think. But also it was like, even to get to the point where we were fundraising was hard for me. Like, I didn't really want to, and even like, while we were in the middle of it ... Remember it almost like, fell apart a couple of times? Because I was like, actually, maybe we shouldn't do this. And there was a lot going on there. Um, yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:08:28] That's funny. I don't remember it fully almost falling apart. I would never have phrased it that way. I'm really curious ... [Laughs].

Dan Shipper: [00:08:34] Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:08:34] Maybe we have divergent memories.

Dan Shipper: [00:08:36] [Laughs].

Nathan Baschez: [00:08:36] Anyway, we got to get to the bottom of this.

Dan Shipper: [00:08:38] Okay. I remember that there was very specifically one conversation where I was like, "Hey, I know I said that, like, I would, like, raise a bunch of money for this if it all worked out, basically."

Nathan Baschez: [00:08:48] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Dan Shipper: [00:08:49] "And now I think my bar for wanting to go raise a lot more money for this business is higher than I thought it would be, and I needed to be honest with you, and I needed to be honest with our investors about that. That, like, we would need to prove a lot for it. I think for me to make sense, to go raise a lot."

And then we just had this whole conversation where ... I honestly think there was a moment where I was like, do you and Nathan even want to keep doing it if I feel this way? I don't know if you remember that. Um ...

Nathan Baschez: [00:09:12] I do remember that.

Dan Shipper: [00:09:13] But that was like a big moment where you kind of, like, decided, like, yes I do.

Nathan Baschez: [00:09:17] Yeah. I do remember that. My memory of that was ... It was a little bit before we were like actually raising ... But maybe it wasn't, maybe it was somewhere in the middle.

Dan Shipper: [00:09:24] I don't think so. It wasn't in the middle.

Nathan Baschez: [00:09:24] I remember we were, like, talking to some investors, but I didn't remember that it was, like, in the middle of fundraising where it might almost fall apart. My memory of it, it was a little bit more sequential. Like we had kind of like had that thing where it was like kind of tough, and then, like, we were sorta talking to investors, but it wasn't like we were, like, negotiating a terms sheet or whatever.

Dan Shipper: [00:09:42] That's true. We weren't negotiating a term sheet, but we had investors committed. We didn't have a lead yet, but we had some investors committed. Because I specifically remember it was like when all of this became non-theoretical for me and it was like, I was staring it in the face that I was like, oh, I feel slightly differently than I thought I did.

Nathan Baschez: [00:09:56] Right. Yeah. And I think it's funny how fuzzy that was, because it was basically just sort of, you were like, "Hey, like, you know how sometimes I say like ... And if things are going well, we'll raise money? I realized my definition of going well is like, maybe different than what you imagined it is."

Dan Shipper: [00:10:12] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:10:12] "Cause it's not just going well, it's like-

Dan Shipper: [00:10:14] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:10:14] " ... going a very specific type of well or something."

Dan Shipper: [00:10:17] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:10:18] And it was really tough for me because basically I had to sort of accept, like, if I want to keep working on this, I have to accept the possibility that even if the business is going well, we'll not raise money even if I think that it would be beneficial to the business. And I basically made a bet that that'll be fine, and if it really is obvious that it will be beneficial to the business and I'm right about that, then you will see it.

Dan Shipper: [00:10:42] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:10:42] And if it's not obvious that it's beneficial to the business, then like, I don't know, we probably shouldn't raise anyway, obviously.

Dan Shipper: [00:10:48] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:10:48] It's funny, because I kind of don't know ... Like, maybe that's a bad bet. Like, maybe at one point in the future it will feel super obvious to me and it'll feel like it- it's not a good idea to you-

Dan Shipper: [00:11:00] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:11:00] ... and that'll be like a sticking point, but ...

Dan Shipper: [00:11:01] It definitely won't feel like a good idea to me, but I think that I will feel better about it. Like basically I think my opinion on raising money is different than it was a year ago.

Nathan Baschez: [00:11:11] Interesting. What changed?

Dan Shipper: [00:11:12] Um, having gone through- having gone through it in the sense that we raised money and it didn't affect our ability to make decisions. That was like one of my big things is like, I didn't want a bunch of people coming in and, like, kind of changing the way that we do things or feeling like it put a bunch of extra pressure on us to make this into something that it wasn't, or that I didn't want it to be, basically.

Nathan Baschez: [00:11:27] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Dan Shipper: [00:11:27] Um, there was a lot of fears wrapped up in it. And some of them are true, some of them are not, but especially at this stage of the company, we have great investors that are really helpful when we need them. But we've been able to, for the last year, just run the company the way we think it should be run, which is I think amazing.

Nathan Baschez: [00:11:39] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Dan Shipper: [00:11:39] So I- I feel a little bit more comfortable. I- I- I'm probably more comfortable raising than I was a year ago. I still, like, think that the way that we run this business, which is what we told our investors when we raised was like, "Hey, we think this can be really big, but we're not sure it can be big on a venture time horizon."

Nathan Baschez: [00:11:56] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:11:56] "And so you shouldn't expect us to raise more money immediately and maybe not at all." But I think I probably would be able to be more convinced of raising in the future than I would have been like a year ago before we had done this.

Nathan Baschez: [00:12:09] Yeah. I think that the thing about like, are we, like, a VC company or not?

Dan Shipper: [00:12:13] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:12:14] Like the identity of it was maybe a big part of it for you-

Dan Shipper: [00:12:16] It's possible.

Nathan Baschez: [00:12:17] ... because it's like, I think you've viewed it for a while as like not your thing.

Dan Shipper: [00:12:21] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:12:22] And I was sort of the flip side of that, where I was kind of like, yeah, I don't really want to, like, make all the mistakes that a lot of venture backed companies do, but like, you know, I like the idea of, like, going big, you know? [Laughs].

Dan Shipper: [00:12:38] [Laughs].

Nathan Baschez: [00:12:38] And I also get that like ... But what- I'm not going to like, do some business that I think is really boring or whatever, but like, it's like more venture-backable. And like, I'm going to do some sort of weird writer collective media type business or whatever. [Laughs].

Dan Shipper: [00:12:50] Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:12:51] Cause that's just like, who I am. But at the same time, I really liked the sort of like, technology aspect of what we do, the marketplace aspect of what we do. There are components of what we do that excite me, that make me think it could scale differently than media companies have in the past.

Dan Shipper: [00:13:04] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Nathan Baschez: [00:13:05] And we don't know if that's right. I think we still don't know, but it's not definitely wrong. You know? [Laughs].

Dan Shipper: [00:13:10] That's the hope. That's definitely the hope.

Nathan Baschez: [00:13:11] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:13:12] And we're figuring it out as well.

Nathan Baschez: [00:13:13] Yeah, totally.

Dan Shipper: [00:13:14] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:13:14] It's funny because so much of it is just like about people, which is so obvious, but it's just ... I think especially in media, it's just about, can we create a vibe that people who have a lot of talent want to be around and, like, view as conducive to their creative process and will help them do the things they want to do-

Dan Shipper: [00:13:34] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:13:34] ... in a way that they couldn't do on their own?

Dan Shipper: [00:13:36] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:13:37] It's like- the economics and everything else ... It's like, yeah, it helps, but if the vibe was wrong, the economics don't matter. So it's kind of like the harder part is in some ways the vibe, I think, because it's more subtle.

Dan Shipper: [00:13:47] Yeah. I definitely think the whole, like, vibe realization is really big. It's not only a vibe around, can we attract these kinds of writers, or- or editors, or people that we want to work with, but like, that vibe extends to readers too.

Nathan Baschez: [00:14:00] Right.

Dan Shipper: [00:14:00] You attract the writers, who attract the readers, and then you get this circle of the readers attract more writers that want to get those readers, and new writers attract more readers. And I think if you start looking at vibes in that way, you can ... There's a lot of other businesses that are very similar, like Pixar has a vibe. Apple has a vibe. And a vibe is a reflection of the people that work on it. And so we're creating our vibe and we're seeing the extent to which the vibe can grow.

Nathan Baschez: [00:14:21] Yeah. And I think the challenge is just sort of trying not to get ahead of ourselves. Which is I think part of what the VC thing is like-

Dan Shipper: [00:14:29] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:14:29] ... part of the risk of that. Because the type of company we have, I still think it can be big, but it doesn't scale in the same way that a technology tool does.

Dan Shipper: [00:14:36] Right. It's much more people-dependent, and like, talent-dependent. I mean, technologies are talent-dependent too-

Nathan Baschez: [00:14:41] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:14:41] ... but it's much more people- and talent-dependent than, um ...

Nathan Baschez: [00:14:43] Yeah. And this is the interesting thing, is there are very large brands that are totally talent-dependent.

Dan Shipper: [00:14:48] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:14:48] Record labels, HBO. Like, these are large things that it would be nice to have founded, you know? [Laughs].

Dan Shipper: [00:14:53] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:14:54] So it's not like there's this ultimate cap on it, but it is ... Honestly kind of what it is, is it's a little bit fragile. I do think Apple is actually a really great comparison because it's a technology company that has vibes.

Dan Shipper: [00:15:06] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:15:06] [Laughs]. You know?

Dan Shipper: [00:15:07] That's the whole thing about it.

Nathan Baschez: [00:15:08] And like that's what's so rare about it, is like, oh my God, they actually have tastes. Like, how do you pull that off-

Dan Shipper: [00:15:12] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:15:12] ... as a giant corporation?

Dan Shipper: [00:15:13] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:15:14] And the way you do it is you coast off Steve Jobs-

Dan Shipper: [00:15:15] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:15:16] ... and Johnny Ivan, whoever else. But I dunno.

Dan Shipper: [00:15:18] Yeah. So we only have a couple of minutes left. If you had to go back to your one year ago self and tell yourself something about how the next year would go, what would you say?

Nathan Baschez: [00:15:29] Get ready. [Laughs]. Buckle up.

Dan Shipper: [00:15:33] Buckle up, baby.

Nathan Baschez: [00:15:35] Yeah. It's not going to get much easier. [Laughs]. It's going to get a lot harder.

Dan Shipper: [00:15:38] Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:15:39] Is what I would say. And I would say like also ... Okay, so how to handle what the hard parts were is, just have patience and, to some extent, save your energy. The story of 2020 for me was basically like ... The first half was like, oh my God, this thing is, like, starting to work. And like, gradually getting more and more and more, like, traction and excitement, and spending more and more in my time, you know? And like, by the time the pandemic hit, it was like a- almost just ... I was doing nothing except for sleeping, eating, and working. And then we raised money and we did the whole bundling stuff, and I started having less time to write and having more complexity in my life, and struggled with that for a couple of months, and then basically totally burnt out. [Laughs]. And was like, in a pretty rough place where I was being able to exercise mastery in a lot of ways, of like, the things that I'm really good at. The way that my responsibilities were set up was like difficult on the way that, I think relative to my strengths, it wasn't a good match.

And then I think the story of 2021 is, so far, been being roughly close to rock bottom I would say, like at the beginning of the year. And then it- things gradually improving as the year has gone on-

Dan Shipper: [00:16:50] Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:16:50] ... is how I feel about how- the story of the business so far.

Dan Shipper: [00:16:54] Yeah. It's so cliche to say there's so many highs and lows or whatever, but honestly, like we had months in the early- in the beginning of the business and- and even towards the middle, uh, of our journey so far where it's like, you grow at 20% and you're like, wow, this thing is going to be amazing. And for those months, like, I was- really felt like I was in my element. Right?

And then things just started getting harder, especially like around the holidays, like winter and the holidays, like ...

Nathan Baschez: [00:17:14] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:17:15] I went through a breakup. We, like, were on this endless march to like launch our new platform. It was the deepest, darkest depths of COVID, you know?

Nathan Baschez: [00:17:23] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Dan Shipper: [00:17:23] Like- it's just like, actually one of the hardest times in my life, really, was like the winter of this year basically. It got bad. [Laughs]. It'll get bad is one thing I'll say to myself.

Nathan Baschez: [00:17:31] That's why I said yeah, like, get ready. [Laughs].

Dan Shipper: [00:17:33] Yeah, yeah. Get ready. But like also ... And I know it's so cliche to say this, but I- I do feel like I've just learned a lot about myself, and I want to say that in a way that doesn't feel cliche. Like, this experience has been a mirror for me of things that I didn't realize I did, or was, or how I acted, you know?

Nathan Baschez: [00:17:51] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Dan Shipper: [00:17:51] And how that affected other people.

Nathan Baschez: [00:17:52] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:17:53] And that's a credit to you, basically.

Nathan Baschez: [00:17:55] And likewise. I think we've both had that exact same experience-

Dan Shipper: [00:17:58] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:17:58] ... of working together, getting to know the other person better, experiencing the good things and the bad things, and reflecting all of it back to the other person-

Dan Shipper: [00:18:06] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:06] ... and being like, whoa.

Dan Shipper: [00:18:07] Yeah. And that is so valuable. It just is. It's like one of the most ... There are so many meaningful things to me about this business. I love the writers we work with. I love the work that we produce. I love that we get to go into work every day and have this Discord full of smart, amazing, awesome people. I love that. It's a really cool business. It's working, it's growing.

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:23] We have hats.

Dan Shipper: [00:18:24] We- we think it could be really great, uh, really big in the future. And we have hats. We have so- we have great swag. But I think that one of the cores for me is that, is just o- our relationship and what it has taught me about me, and who I am.

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:36] Yeah. Same.

Dan Shipper: [00:18:37] So, well, I wonder what the next year has in store for us.

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:41] Next year we should listen to this. It's so funny, like, this is our first sort of recap-y type episode, even though-

Dan Shipper: [00:18:46] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:46] ... we've been, like, working on this thing for like a year and a half now.

Dan Shipper: [00:18:48] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:50] I feel like it would be fun next year to, like, listen to this and react to one episode and then do another episode that's more, like, forward looking or something like that. I don't know.

Dan Shipper: [00:18:56] That sounds great.

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:57] All right, cool. Well-

Dan Shipper: [00:18:58] Let's do it.

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:59] ... we gotta make it another year, Dan. [Laughs].

Dan Shipper: [00:19:01] [Laughs]. I think ...

Nathan Baschez: [00:19:02] I think even if things really fall apart, we'll at least have a year of like, why- of everything going- getting- unwinding.

Dan Shipper: [00:19:08] Yeah. [Laughs].

Nathan Baschez: [00:19:08] So at the very least we'll make it one more year. [Laughs].

Dan Shipper: [00:19:10] I love the optimism, Dan. [Laughs].

Nathan Baschez: [00:19:12] I'm just saying, even if everything went wrong, we'd still have enough kind of, like, runway to make it through here. [Laughs].

Dan Shipper: [00:19:18] Right. Fingers crossed.

Nathan Baschez: [00:19:20] All right. Well, I will talk to you again next year.

Dan Shipper: [00:19:23] Next year.