#77 - Under Talk Therapy’s hood, with guest host Freia Lobo

Dan Shipper: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to Talk Therapy, a podcast where two friends talk about their journey to start a media business together. I'm Dan Shipper.

Freia Lobo: [00:00:06] And I'm Freia Lobo.

Dan Shipper: [00:00:07] What?

Freia Lobo: [00:00:08] [laughs]

Dan Shipper: [00:00:08] That's not your line. [laughs] Welcome, Freia. How's it going?

Nathan Baschez: [00:00:13] Wait. Hold on. We have to explain the situation to listeners of, of, uh, what you're doing here. What's the premise of the, uh, episode today?

Freia Lobo: [00:00:19] Yeah. So I'm a big fan of the pod. I've been listening since episode one, and I've listened to every episode. And I noticed that it's gotten progressively more and more, shall we say, vulnerable, and-

Nathan Baschez: [00:00:33] Yeah. That's fair.

Freia Lobo: [00:00:34] ... last week, the title of the pod was, Is Dan Inconsiderate? And I sent you guys a message, and I said, "Wow, this has gotten so, so raw that it's just weird [laughs] to look at the name of this episode."

Nathan Baschez: [00:00:45] [laughs]

Dan Shipper: [00:00:45] [laughs]

Freia Lobo: [00:00:45] And I wanted to hear more about the behind the scenes of hosting this podcast for the last almost year.

Dan Shipper: [00:00:51] Yeah. Awesome. Well, let's do it. And we should also say, in full disclosure, not only are you a big fan of the pod, but you're also an Every investor.

Freia Lobo: [00:00:58] That's true. Yes.

Dan Shipper: [00:00:59] [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:00:59] That's true.

Dan Shipper: [00:01:00] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:00] #proudinvestor?

Freia Lobo: [00:01:01] Yes. Yes. [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:02] Okay. Good. [laughs] Uh, yeah. I mean, I'm curious to hear. Uh, you should, you should interview us, but also just first, what made you sweat about... I think you specifically said it [laughs] made you nervous or, like, it made you sweat or something when you saw it. Like, what was going through your mind when you saw the episode come down the feed that was, like, Is Dan Inconsiderate?

Freia Lobo: [00:01:18] Yes. So I think this isn't, like, the first time that there's been a provocative title or something that, you know, stood out to me. But I think maybe it was because, I don't know if you guys have ever had, like, either of your names used like this in the title.

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:33] Mm.

Freia Lobo: [00:01:33] Maybe it was just the fact that, like, the title wasn't, like, discussing an issue or whatever. It was like, Is Dan-

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:39] Right.

Freia Lobo: [00:01:39] ... Inconsiderate? It was specifically-

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:40] [laughs]

Freia Lobo: [00:01:40] ... about one of you, and that was very shocking.

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:43] Yeah. That's good, actually. We should use that as our future click bait, like-

Freia Lobo: [00:01:46] [laughs]

Dan Shipper: [00:01:46] We should keep it in mind. Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:47] Yeah. [laughs]

Dan Shipper: [00:01:48] As shocking as possible. Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:49] Is Nathan Incompetent?

Dan Shipper: [00:01:52] [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:52] That should be the next one. [laughs]

Freia Lobo: [00:01:53] Yeah. It was almost like those YouTube videos where it's like, shocking. Did I die? [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:59] [laughs]

Dan Shipper: [00:01:59] [laughs] Well, yeah. Ask us any questions that you want, you know. We're, we're here to, we're here to-

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:04] AMA.

Dan Shipper: [00:02:04] ... be as open as possible.

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:05] AUA.

Dan Shipper: [00:02:06] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:06] Ask us anything.

Dan Shipper: [00:02:07] [laughs]

Freia Lobo: [00:02:07] Okay. Great. So I guess the first thing I'm curious about is, so disclosure for this episode, we didn't plan anything, and I'm curious if that's how most episodes go and how you've evolved since you started.

Dan Shipper: [00:02:21] Yeah. Generally, it's, it's like a fairly lightweight process. We have a calendar invite two times a week for half an hour. Uh, we'll get on the phone at the beginning of the calendar invite and just, like, bat around ideas for five minutes, and then we'll just run with whatever comes to mind.

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:33] Yeah. And sometimes we have a queue of ideas where, like, oh w- let's talk about this on the pod. Oh, so-and-so's going to, like, we've got a guest coming on next one, so we'll do it on Friday instead or [inaudible 00:02:42]. That kind of thing. But it's usually only planned insofar as, like, a starting point. We don't really ever know where it's going to go.

Dan Shipper: [00:02:48] Yeah.

Freia Lobo: [00:02:48] So you have the theme figured out or the topic figured out, usually, but you don't know what the other one's going to say?

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:54] Yeah. Actually, we've tried to keep it pretty, like, a lot of times, I, I don't want to. I'm like, okay. I want to save, like, the idea for the pod. S- One time, I think, we did talk a little bit more extensively beforehand, and I still think it actually worked pretty well. But just purely as a matter of time saving-

Dan Shipper: [00:03:08] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:03:08] ... we don't normally do that.

Dan Shipper: [00:03:10] Yeah. I will say that for, like, the more vulnerable ones, like the Is Dan Inconsiderate? one, or we had one about a mistake that Nathan made, we're having the conversation in real time. We don't know where it's going to go.

And in some of these conversations, we've talked about things that we haven't talked about before. But those tend to be conversations that we've had, like, we've already picked over and, like, we have more of a shared narrative around, like, what happened and how it went and what we each contributed to it or whatever.

So it's basically like we're, a lot of times on the podcast, we're reprocessing conversations that we've had. But we're not, like, planning out this is what you're going to say, this is what I'm going to say, all that kind of stuff.

Nathan Baschez: [00:03:41] Yeah. I think that kind of nails it, where it's like we preprocess it, like, for real when it's like, we're figuring out what happened, and maybe even the feelings are raw or whatever, like, not [laughs] on the podcast. And then once we feel like, oh, cool, we figured that one out, then it's like we can kind of, like, bottle it up and put it on the shelf and give it a title and a name, and it's a podcast episode now.

Dan Shipper: [00:04:00] Yeah. Yeah. Because y- you never want to, we don't want to monetize our own hurt feelings [laughs] or whatever, you know? Like, you want-

Nathan Baschez: [00:04:08] We'll do that once they're not hurt anymore.

Dan Shipper: [00:04:09] ... Exactly. Like [laughs] it's like, once we've kind of resolved it and it feels okay is when we feel like we can talk about it, because otherwise, yeah. You don't want to talk about those things in public until it feels like you've processed it.

Freia Lobo: [00:04:20] Yeah. That makes sense. That's super interesting. Have there ever been certain topics where you've debated, or one of you has not been super keen on talking about it on the show? How do you, like, decide those?

Nathan Baschez: [00:04:30] There have been times when it was, like, there was an idea of w- something we could talk about for the podcast, and then the other person's been like, "I don't know if I'm, like, ready to talk about that yet." And usually, that's, like, an instant, like, oh, of course, then we're not.

Dan Shipper: [00:04:42] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:04:42] If you're not ready then I don't want to, like, talk about it. So it's never like a debate or whatever. I think that the more common thing is we're not exactly sure what to talk about, and there's a, we're not also 100% sure, like, what the podcast is about. I think we're getting more to it [laughs] more recently than we have been before.

There's, um, a friend of mine who said that the episodes he likes are, like, sitcom episodes where, like, we faced a problem and somehow solved it and it's, like, a quick, tight, almost, like, story about a specific incident, almost. Um, and I liked that framing. [laughs]

So I think we're looking out for, like, what are the problems that have happened recently that we feel like we solved, and, and that have to do somehow with, like, emotions or vulnerability or something like that, that we can talk about? Yeah. That's kind of what we look for now.

But, yeah. It's never been, like, debating what to talk about, really. It's been more, like, searching for something that feels awesome. And usually, as soon as there's something that, like, it's like, oh, cool. We've got it. That's the one. We, we have a pretty much, I think, a shared instinct around that.

Dan Shipper: [00:05:36] Yeah. Totally. I think the limits are, is it something that's fresh, too fresh to talk about? Or sometimes there will be issues where it's like, it just involves other people, and we never want to involve other... like, if someone else wants to come on the show and talk through things, that would be great, but we don't want to talk about other people on the show just between us. You know? We tend to focus on issues that we own collectively, because they really mostly affect us.

Freia Lobo: [00:05:56] That makes sense. Are there things that are completely off limits, other than talking about other people, other than the two of you?

Nathan Baschez: [00:06:03] Well, we have a no politics at work rule, so-

Freia Lobo: [00:06:05] [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:06:05] ... [laughs] No. I'm just kidding.

Dan Shipper: [00:06:08] [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:06:08] No. I, I don't know. I'm sure that there are some things that would feel uncomfortable to talk about if it's, like, super personal or something like that or something that either one of us sort of, sort of, like, felt bad about. But it hasn't been the kind of thing that has occurred to us.

The only kind of thing that is like, oh, this could be good, but then it, it's like, uh, we don't end up talking about it, is either because it feels like it's probably actually boring instead of actually good, or it, it's a little bit too raw. We should, like, continue to talk about it a little bit more before it feels like it's a good idea to record an episode about it.

Dan Shipper: [00:06:36] I think one of the things that you're hitting on is that, like, we generally just, like, really like talking about this stuff amongst ourselves. It's, like, how we feel about things and, and how things happened, and how we can do better next time, or all that kind of stuff, and, like, what is our dynamic, are all things that we spend, like, a lot of time talking about, because it's useful but also because it's just, like, the way our brains work.

And I think a byproduct of having those conversations is that you just get more comfortable and facile with, like, just being able to talk about your inner, what's going on for you in a way that doesn't feel super threatening. And so we're able to kind of translate that into the podcast, and it seems to work.

Freia Lobo: [00:07:11] Yeah. It sounds like it's really important to you guys to be fairly, like, real and vulnerable on the show, and I'm curious what that comes from. Like, do you have other inspirations? Or, like, what's the goal here?

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:22] Other inspirations, I think, to some extent, there's definitely a big inspiration of, like, the Gimlet, like, season one of the StartUp Podcast when, like-

Freia Lobo: [00:07:30] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:31] ... Alex Blumberg and Matt Lieber were talking about negotiating, like, equity and stuff. Like, sensitive stuff, that it just felt like... I don't know. I had been a part of a couple of conversations like that before I listened to that season, and it was always, like, you just feel so, like... I don't know.

There's, like, your friend told you X, and some investor told you Y, and then some lawyer told you Z, which doesn't make sense to you. But I don't know. They're a lawyer. And it's like, I don't know. It, it doesn't even really get at the, like, emotional part of that conversation, and that season just did such an amazing job with that. And I also think the final season, particularly, was really good on that, too, about the decision to sell. And, um, that's a big inspiration.

But I also think just we're sort of, like, believers in the idea that companies are about people trying to work together, and people trying to work together is about, in a lot of cases, emotions and communication. And so it just feels like an important part of creating a good team and a good company is, like, thinking that these issues are important and having the skills to deal with them-

Dan Shipper: [00:08:25] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:08:25] ... and not feeling like it's just some annoying thing that we wish we could shove to the side or whatever.

Dan Shipper: [00:08:29] Yeah. And I just think that there's inspirations and there's, like, anti-inspiration. And I think that there's just a lot of stuff that makes business out to be this, like, purely mathematical, mechanical machine type thing, where the people aren't, like, real human beings that have weaknesses and screw up.

And I think for us, it's been, or I'll just speak for me, like, it feels really important to be able to honestly talk about who I am and who we are as people and, like, how that works and how that affects the business that we run and, and all that kind of stuff, because I think there are people out there that need to hear that people run businesses [laughs] and that-

Nathan Baschez: [00:09:06] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:09:06] ... the things that they are feeling are pretty normal and happen a lot. And it will help them make better decisions and communicate better in their own businesses and, and just feel a little bit less alone.

Freia Lobo: [00:09:15] It almost sounds to me a little bit like you guys are making the show that you wish you had maybe, like, when you were younger.

Dan Shipper: [00:09:21] [laughs] Yes.

Nathan Baschez: [00:09:22] Yes.

Dan Shipper: [00:09:22] Absolutely.

Nathan Baschez: [00:09:22] Yeah. Definitely. It's such a gift to have a partner who you have issues with, because everyone has issues with any type of partner, business partner, teammate at a company-

Dan Shipper: [00:09:32] Wait. You have issues with me?

Nathan Baschez: [00:09:33] ... Yeah. Definitely. [laughs]

Freia Lobo: [00:09:34] [laughs]

Dan Shipper: [00:09:34] Hold the phone. [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:09:35] And, uh, you know, like, any type of person that you have to go through lots of experiences with, grapple with what they mean, and then make decisions and move forward according to your values, you know. But you're going to have different anxieties. You're going to have different sensitivities. You're going to have slightly different goals. No one can have the exact same vision for what they want to do, but if you want to do anything that's worthwhile, you're probably not doing it all on your own.

And another inspiration is, like, Esther Perel's, I think it's called How's Work? or something. She has a podcast for couples, but also, like, romantic couples, but also for business partners, um, where she interviews people. And it j- I don't know. Or, like, the, um, Reboot Podcast with Jerry Colonna. Like, that kind of stuff, basically.

But it's just so cool to me to, like, get really in depth of, like, a specific relationship, you know, rather than, like, okay, here's, like, an hour with people, and that's all you get, because, like, a lot of it is really, gets really nuanced.

Dan Shipper: [00:10:24] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:10:24] That, I think, is where the interesting stuff is.

Dan Shipper: [00:10:26] Yeah. And I, I actually kind of like this show as a time capsule for us, too. You know? I think, I think listeners can go on a journey with us. Like, we don't know where this is going to end up in three years, you know, or four years or 10 years or whatever.

Nathan Baschez: [00:10:36] Right. Could be acrimony. You can-

Dan Shipper: [00:10:37] Yeah. Totally. [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:10:38] ... you can see it unfold.

Dan Shipper: [00:10:39] Yeah. [laughs] You'll be able to see the cracks, and then-

Nathan Baschez: [00:10:41] [laughs] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:10:41] ... the explosion or whatever, but we'll just ride off into the sunset, and everything will be great, which is what we're hoping for. But, um, yeah.

I think it would be really cool if this show, like, served as something of a time capsule for us, where obviously, like, listeners can go along and, like, listen to us on our journey, and we don't know where it's going to end up. And I think that's, like, really, really cool.

But also just for us to be able to, like, look back and see where we were a year ago, and then in three years, see where we are now and just, like, see how we've grown and see what the journey was like, in a way that's honest, because-

Nathan Baschez: [00:11:09] Right.

Dan Shipper: [00:11:09] ... I just think that there's so much hindsight bias. And just everyone is, like, predisposed to forget things or to change their own narratives of, like, what happened. And this serves as this, like, record that we can go back to and be like, "No. This is how we saw things, and this is why we made those decisions, and these are the issues that we faced," without getting everything fogged up by our own memories. And I think that'll just be really, really precious.

Nathan Baschez: [00:11:29] It'll be like the, um, Black Mirror episode where you can rewind your memories or whatever. [laughs]

Dan Shipper: [00:11:34] [laughs] But, but less dystopian, hopefully.

Nathan Baschez: [00:11:35] Yeah. I'm just kidding.

Freia Lobo: [00:11:36] Do you guys go back and listen yet? I was looking at the first episode. I think it was June 2020.

Dan Shipper: [00:11:41] Yeah. [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:11:42] I half am excited to, and I half am, like, dreading it. I don't know why. It just feels kind of like reading a journal that I wrote. For some reason, even if I, it was, like, an exciting time, I'm worried that I won't like what I see. [laughs] I think. I don't know.

Dan Shipper: [00:11:55] I've listened to it. Not all of them, but I went back and listened, like, maybe, like, a month ago. And it's just, like, honestly, none of the stuff we talked about surprised me too much, but just the quality was so bad. [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:12:04] Oh, really?

Freia Lobo: [00:12:05] [laughs]

Dan Shipper: [00:12:05] Yeah. [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:12:05] Like, it was just boring?

Dan Shipper: [00:12:06] No, no, no. Um, like, I didn't have a microphone, and we hadn't figured out the theme music. Like, you can just watch it evolve from something that was, like, pretty, like, not particularly well formed, or we didn't really know what it was, into where it is now, which is we still don't really know where it is, but, like, I think we ha- we have a much better sense of it now than we did. And so it, you can just see kind of the seams, and you can see, it feels just much more casual and, and less well put together. Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:12:30] Right. We got our sea legs, maybe.

Dan Shipper: [00:12:31] Yeah. A little bit.

Freia Lobo: [00:12:32] One thing I'm curious about is if stuff from the podcast trickles into other parts of your life. So, like, do people listen who are close friends and family?

Dan Shipper: [00:12:40] Yes.

Freia Lobo: [00:12:40] Or maybe, like, writers in the collective? And then do people bring up stuff from the show in other parts of life? And h- how do you feel about that?

Dan Shipper: [00:12:49] People do listen. Friends listen. Other writers listen.

Nathan Baschez: [00:12:52] Our moms.

Dan Shipper: [00:12:53] Our moms listen.

Nathan Baschez: [00:12:54] And our, and, uh, my dad does. [laughs] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:12:56] That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And it, I think it brings up good conversations. Like, I've had good conversations, like, with some friends and with my parents about different things that I've brought up. And they've been like, "Oh, I didn't really know you feel that way but, like, here's my view of this." And I think it can serve as, like, a really good way to deepen relationships with certain people in your life that, that care about you.

And then al- [laughs] also it's just, like, now in our Discord, like, if I do something wrong, everyone's like, "Oh, you're just inconsiderate." You know? [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:13:18] [laughs]

Freia Lobo: [00:13:19] [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:13:19] Dan's going to regret that episode forever. [crosstalk 00:13:21].

Dan Shipper: [00:13:20] Yeah. [laughs] So it can also come back to haunt you.

Freia Lobo: [00:13:23] Do you ever get self conscious about maybe, like, especially for the writers you work with or, like, investors or, like, on the work side, do you ever worry about, you know, people you work with listening?

Nathan Baschez: [00:13:33] I think we really want to be thoughtful about just, if we're talking about anything that has to do with anyone else, doing it in a really careful and respectful way, and probably talking with them beforehand, or ideally just having them be the ones to speak for themselves. So that's why we pretty much stick to stuff that feels contained between Dan and I, you know, for the most part, where there's, like, limited amount of interface with other parties. [laughs] You know?

And so it's not like nervous or insecure about what they might think when they listen. It's just more like, you know, we want to make sure that this is, like, a thing that we can keep doing sustainably and comfortably, and it doesn't, like, become a huge amount of work, basically, because not everyone may want their stuff to get talked about on a podcast. Like, Dan and I are a little bit weird [laughs] in that way, probably, you know.

And so to the extent that anyone who's working with us does want that, that's, like, cool, and I think we would love to do more episodes with, like, other people that we work with. But I think honestly, when it comes to just, like, talking through issues between Dan and I where we're just being really vulnerable, I kind of like the idea that people can see, like, yeah. These are the areas where, like, we have strengths or weaknesses or whate- it just feels like it might be... I would love to listen to a podcast with everyone who I work with [laughs] talking about their-

Dan Shipper: [00:14:38] Yeah.

Freia Lobo: [00:14:38] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Nathan Baschez: [00:14:38] ... you know, these kinds of things.

Dan Shipper: [00:14:39] Yeah. I've felt self conscious a little bit in the past. Like, it is in the back of your mind of, like, okay, what if our investors listen to this, or whatever? But I feel like it's who we are [laughs] so I would like to work with people, investors, writers, everybody that feels good about the fact that we think about things in this way and-

Nathan Baschez: [00:14:58] Right.

Dan Shipper: [00:14:58] ... so it may turn some people off, and I definitely respect that. But those probably aren't people that would have a good time working with us anyway.

Freia Lobo: [00:15:05] The last thing I'm curious about is, so you guys record pretty often. I don't know if you have a set schedule. Is it, like, two or three times a week? And it's been quite a while of doing that. And so how do you kind of end up doing it this much? And do you think that this is the plan for the foreseeable future?

Dan Shipper: [00:15:23] Yeah. We record twice a week. Sometimes we do, like, more. Sometimes we miss one. But it's generally twice a week, 30 minutes each time. I think that's pretty sustainable. I'm, like, pretty-

Nathan Baschez: [00:15:32] Yeah.

Dan Shipper: [00:15:32] ... hap- happy with it because, like, we sit down for 30 minutes. We have a fun conversation. We send it to the editor. And, like, it just gets posted. So it's not a ton of our time. It feels like it's valuable for the business.

It's actually, like, a pretty good, it seems like, mid funnel, where people are, they've maybe been introduced to Every through one of our writers or through our own writing, and then they find Talk Therapy, and they kind of, like, get to like us a little bit. And then they're like, "Okay. Maybe I should subscribe."

So it feels valuable for the business, and it's pretty low cost and a lot of fun for us. So I could see us doing this for the foreseeable future, for sure.

Nathan Baschez: [00:16:00] Yeah. I think if we stopped doing it, within, like, a couple weeks, I would want to start either doing this or something like it. I just feel like I'm good at, like, the podcasting medium. I don't know if it's something about my psychology or what, but I like talking.

Dan Shipper: [00:16:14] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:16:14] And everyone always gets annoyed at me, because I'm sort of a 'splainer.

Dan Shipper: [00:16:16] [laughs]

Freia Lobo: [00:16:16] [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:16:16] Like, I like explaining things, but I feel like podcasting is an environment where that's, like, at least semi-acceptable. [laughs]

Dan Shipper: [00:16:22] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:16:22] To be [laughs] to be explaining things all the time.

Dan Shipper: [00:16:27] [laughs]

Freia Lobo: [00:16:27] Fair. Last question. What are your hopes and dreams for the show, whether it's a dream listener or dream guest or just, like, some impact that it has on someone?

Nathan Baschez: [00:16:35] That's a good question. I think something that we've actually talked about before is it would be amazing if the culture of business generally, but I mean, maybe just our corner of business, right, like, people we know, tech, Twitter, whatever, shifted to recognize the value and importance of people's emotions that they have in dealing with each other.

And I just feel like every single thing we've run into in this business, it feels like very, very practical and urgent, basically, in a way that it feels incredible that so few people are talking about it, because it's like, you can come up with all the abstract strategy or trends or whatever, like, 10X engineer type stuff you want, and, like, that's okay. But, like, if people are not enjoying working with each other, like, it's not going to go very far or last very long.

And it's kind of hard to build, it takes some skill and intention to build a team that can gel, and it takes some sensitivity to these kinds of issues to be able to notice them, to be able to talk about them with people. Like, and it just feels like there's a kind of, like, lowish bar.

Dan Shipper: [00:17:37] Yeah. [laughs]

Freia Lobo: [00:17:37] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:17:37] Like, there's a lot of bad bosses-

Dan Shipper: [00:17:39] [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:17:39] ... that just, they don't like thinking about this stuff. And people can tol- tolerate it, but it creates environments that make it kind of, like, suck for a lot of people in their jobs. And I just really, like, nobody wants to work in a job that kind of sucks because your boss, like, you feel like you can't talk to them.

Dan Shipper: [00:17:52] Yeah. It's like, what does it look like to create a space in business for good communication, honesty, and vulnerability about emotions in a way that allows you to work together to, to do great things, rather than kind of being like, "Oh, well, this person is, like, too argumentative, or this person is too unreliable or whatever and, like, we should just not work together or whate-"

Like, just the things that people do where they're just prematurely breaking out of relationships that I think could be helpful for them, or just turn themselves off so they bear the horrible burden of, like, working with people that can't really communicate or just don't have good communication skills. So, yeah. I think that if we could do that, that would be really, really awesome. And in the meantime, just recording this has been great, too.

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:33] Yeah. It's its own goal, I think. Just-

Dan Shipper: [00:18:35] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:35] ... the process of doing it is fun. And so I don't worry too much about goals for it, almost, in terms of, like, growth or something. Like, it feels like just a zone where we can kind of have fun and do something that we think is really cool, and it doesn't have to have the pressure of some of the other stuff, like some different parts of the bundle or whatever.

Dan Shipper: [00:18:51] Yeah.

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:51] It's like the media company aspect of it.

Dan Shipper: [00:18:54] Yeah.

Freia Lobo: [00:18:54] That's awesome. Well, thanks for showing me the behind the scenes of the pod. [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:59] Yeah. [laughs]

Dan Shipper: [00:18:59] [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:59] Thank you for listening. It means a ton. It really does.

Freia Lobo: [00:19:02] My honor to be on the show.

Dan Shipper: [00:19:04] [laughs] All right. We'll have to have you back.

Nathan Baschez: [00:19:05] Maybe in a year, we can do, like, a check in and see how we are against our KPIs.

Freia Lobo: [00:19:09] [laughs] Let's do it.

Nathan Baschez: [00:19:11] All right. Well, thank you so much.

Freia Lobo: [00:19:12] Thanks, guys.