#75 - Is Dan inconsiderate?

Dan Shipper: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to Talk Therapy, a podcast where two friends talk about their journey to start a media business together. I am Dan Shipper.

Nathan Baschez: [00:00:06] And I'm Nathan Baschez. And, uh, today we're gonna talk about one of my favorite topics. Dan, [laughs] what's the topic?


Dan Shipper: [00:00:13] I'm considering what that might be. It's about a foible of mine, which is, I can be inconsiderate. Um...


Nathan Baschez: [00:00:18] not in the way that it sounds. Like, that makes it sound worse than it is in some ways. You know? It's not like you're a jerk, you just... there's some things that it escapes you.


 Consideration, like, you just didn't consider

Dan Shipper: [00:00:27] it, you know?

 I literally failed to consider it. It's not that I don't care. [laughs] It's like I have a certain, sometimes, like a little bit of a blindness about certain things that honestly sometimes can be helpful, but sometimes just like comes off as... it's just not great in- in some interpersonal situations. I drop the ball on things sometimes.

Or, in other cases, like with programming stuff, or things with, like, little small details, I'll, like, skip over then, and then things won't work, or- or whatever. It all kind of connects into this being inconsiderate thing. Which I think is also connected to worry.


 'Cause I worry so that I don't do that,

Nathan Baschez: [00:00:59] yeah.

 Right, totally. So, I think what we wanna do with this episode is basically go back, tell the story of one of, in the early days, back when Nathan and Dan were a little more tense about their relationship with each other, we'll call them... we like BC and AD for our relationship or something.

Dan Shipper: [00:01:12] Pre-security and after-security. [

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:16] laughs]

 Yeah. Before Counseling, BC. And then AD is After Dan, 'cause our therapist's name is Dan. So BC and AD. But basically, we've got a BC story from kind of our early days of where it's like these fundamental personality traits that once you learn someone's patterns are seriously not a big deal at all. But, if you're in the early stages, and you're kinda trying to build trust, and, like, things compound, you can get into some kind of, like, bad loops. And I think that these kinds of bad loops are at the heart of a lot of things that a lot of teams and partners of all sorts, like, professional or romantic or whatever, really struggle with. And they can really break a lot of relationships, and it's really sad. But I think that you can work on them, and it can get better.

Dan Shipper: [00:01:55] Well, you know what they say, what doesn't break you makes you stronger,

Nathan Baschez: [00:01:59] so.

 And in this case, I honestly think that's true.


 To be for real about it.

 Yeah, it is interesting.

 Um, so I think the first place to start is, like, set the scene for the conversation we had. This is back early in the business.


 And we're talking with some of the first people about, like, maybe working together in some bundled

Dan Shipper: [00:02:15] capacity.

 Right. So we had basically just launched the bundle, and we were like, "What is the next newsletter that we wanna put into the bundle?" And we'd actually, I think we had talked about this ourselves, 'cause we were like, "Maybe we'll start this." Like, maybe we will, like, in-house start this newsletter, which is basically, like, I have this newsletter, Superorganizers, it's about personal productivity, the systems and processes that make individuals better at their work.

And we had this concept for a newsletter that was like one layer higher than that, which is organizational productivity. What are the systems and processes that make organizations run really well? That was, like, super exciting to both of us. And, so, we had that idea for it, and I just happened-


Nathan Baschez: [00:02:49] was back when we thought of ideas for newsletters and then thought of who might do them.


 Rather than the other way

Dan Shipper: [00:02:53] around. [laughs]

 Yeah. Which, yeah, the way we do it now is much better.

 Overall [

Nathan Baschez: [00:02:55] inaudible 00:02:55] approach from the early

Dan Shipper: [00:02:57] days.


 But anyway, continue. [laughs]

 [laughs] Yeah. And, uh, I- I happened to just stumble on this guy that was doing it. It wasn't exactly what we would have done, but it was very close, where it's like, go find the org chart for an organization, discuss how they do things internally, that kinda thing. And he was just starting out, and I liked his stuff, and I set up a conversation with him. And, um...


Nathan Baschez: [00:03:17] even before the conversation-


 ... just a note, in my head at the time, this was, like, okay, we've got personal productivity, we've got business strategy, and now we have this new thing that's kinda in the middle, that's like business execution.


 Business productivity. And I didn't think of it as, like, organizational productivity, like, this is Superorganizers' world, I just thought of this as a different third thing that is related in some ways to both of ours. So already, I think we're starting from a different place.


 Where I think you were thinking about it as, like, an extension of Superorganizers-


 ... and I was thinking of it as, like, just a third thing that has relationships to our topics.


 But, like, I think we already... we're going into slightly

Dan Shipper: [00:03:50] different mental models.

 Totally, which I think is, um, I think your mental model is actually, like, a little bit more accurate. Or, it incorporated both your perspective and my perspective on this issue, where, for me, I was very focused on what... and how it related to Superorganizers, and hadn't considered how it might be [laughs] related to Divinations. Like, I just hadn't thought about it. [laughs]

And so basically, in the call, that's how I pitched it. I was like, "Hey, we have this bundle, but, like, I really think that this is a really good complement to Superorganizers, like, like, Superorganizers is about individual productivity, this is about organization productivity, and that seems like it makes a lot of sense."

And it was a good call, and Nathan was on it, we all talked. But I feel like the way that I pitched to him stuck out to you, and you brought that up after the call. Tell

Nathan Baschez: [00:04:32] me about that.

 Yeah. So, this was already coming after a separate incident, which we should have a separate episode about. This is coming on the tails of something that is unimportant to the story, but basically-

Dan Shipper: [00:04:42] The Bundle Digest, we have an episode about the Bundle Digest, you can just go listen to the Bundle Digest.


Nathan Baschez: [00:04:46] right. We'll link to it in the show notes.


 We already talked about it.


 Basically, like, we had already kinda recently had an argument. So I was nervous about raising something that I thought might lead to another argument. But at the same, I just felt like it was clear that we had a different understanding of this thing so I didn't wanna talk about it in the call with this guy, 'cause I didn't wanna, like, spring anything on you. But at the same time, I did wanna talk about it, but I was also kinda nervous about it, but I just felt, well, we should be able to communicate about these things.

So, this was a while ago, and I honestly don't remember exactly what I said, but I- I think I said something like, "Hey, like, do you have a quick chance to chat?" And you're like, "Yeah," and we got on the phone, and I'm like, "Hey, like, that call, really good, excited about that guy. Just a note, like, the way that you were describing the way we might work with him seems like it was, like, a spinoff of Superorganizers in some way, and I really feel like business sort of strategy and business execution is deeply linked too, and, like, the interface between deciding what to do and then actually doing it, is, like, super-interesting, and I would love to be involved, I think Divination's might like it, and there could be good little tie-ins there too." I think that's what I said, but maybe I'm a better person now and said it in a better way now than I did then. I don't know, Dan, how-


Dan Shipper: [00:05:54] That's not my memory of it.

 Okay. [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:05:56] What did I say? I...

Dan Shipper: [00:05:58] my memory of what I said...

 And I don't, yeah, I don't, like, who knows. My memory of it is you did, like, flag, like, "Hey, I'm kind of nervous to bring this up, and, like, it's a small thing. But I noticed that you didn't... you don't mention Divinations when you talked about how this could fit into the stuff with the bundle, and in the future, like, we should be really careful to not, like, favor one publication over another when we're... when we're pitching things."


Nathan Baschez: [00:06:19] did say that.


 I did say, "In the future, we should be careful to not favor, like..."


Dan Shipper: [00:06:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 And that really got me, like, I was very upset about that. [laughs] That was a triggering thing for me.

Nathan Baschez: [00:06:29] Yeah. I remember this, because my narrative about you at the time was that you weren't considerate. [laughs] But in, like, a deeper way, you know what I mean? Like, in a... kind of like, in a more selfish way than I now understand it to be.


 The way that I understand, when this thing... kinda thing happens now, is like, "Oh, literally, it didn't occur to him, and as soon as I mention it, he's like oh, shit, of course." You know?


 But at the time, I thought it was more, like, rooted in some selfishness, maybe. And it wasn't, like, that bad, you know? Like, it was just a little, like, people are self-centered, generally.


 Like, that's, like, what our genes involved from, probably, to like, make us be, and whatever. It's not, like, the end of the world, but like, that's what I thought a little bit at the time.


 And I think you could

Dan Shipper: [00:07:06] basically feel that.

 Yeah. And to be clear, like, it is self-centered, but it's, like, not out of m- malice or something, it's just like, uh, sometimes I just don't think about it, basically.

 Right, you know?

 It's weird.

Nathan Baschez: [00:07:15] I think the interesting thing almost here is, like, kind of the distinction I'm drawing is, like, between selfish or not, and I think you're right, that there is something about, like, you're gonna notice things that are present in your own brain, obviously.


 But, and not notice things that might be hypothetically present in other people's brains, because they are harder to notice, because they exist out there in the world-


 ... rather than in there, in your head. And so there is some connection there, but I think the functional difference is when I talk to you, does it feel like you instantly, as soon as you see it, are like, "Oh, shit, yeah, of course," or are you like, "I don't know," trying to defend the-

 Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah.

 And it's interesting, because I think functionally, you ended up, in this instance, defending the thing. But it was sort of, like, because you felt my narrative about you-


 ... and because you felt attacked by that, you're like, "No, I'm not selfish." You know?


 And what it made me feel is, like, actually, he is selfish, 'cause he's, like, not accepting... as soon as I say, he's not like, "Oh, shit, you're right, totally."


 He's like, "No, I didn't..." You know.

 [laughs] Yeah.

 So anyway, what do remember, and of course you didn't respond

Dan Shipper: [00:08:13] that harshly.

 That is true. That is true. Like, you basically were like, "Hey, in the future, we should make sure that we're not favoring one publication over another," and I did feel the, like, undertones of, "And you're kind of, like, a little bit selfish for doing that."


 "You should make sure not to be selfish," and I reacted to that.

 "In the future,

Nathan Baschez: [00:08:26] you should make sure that you're not taking all of the goodies for yourself."

Dan Shipper: [00:08:29] Yeah. [laughs]

 Like you did just now.

 I felt... I definitely felt that.


 And I also felt I had a narrative about you at this, where it was like, basically, you are very protective of, like, your own status as part of the thing we were working on, which was partly true. And you were, like, really picking up, like, sounding really, really small, as evidence that your status might be threatened. And that was another thing that was, like, a problem for me, and I was like, "He shouldn't be so sensitive to this. Like, it's not a big deal, basically."


 And so rather than digging into, "Oh, is there actually a connection between this thing and- and Divinations?" Which there obviously is, and- and you literally, you explained this to me, like, months alter, and I was like, "Oh my God, you're so right, I had not even thought about... thought about that." [laughs]


 Rather than doing that, I was just like, "No, I'm not selfish, and um..."

 "Actually, you're selfish." [laughs]

 Yeah, "Actually, you're selfish, and you're too sensitive, you know, and this is gonna be a huge problem." And that's actually the thing that I was doing a lot back then, which is to kind of extrapolate a lot.

 Mm-hmm [affirmative].

 And to be, like, "Okay, here's this, like small thing, he brought it up in this way that I didn't like, and this particular thing is, like, not gonna end us, but if this keeps happening, and it happens in bigger ways, that's gonna be really bad." And I was very much defending against it happening in a much worse way. And so it would end up creating a really strong reaction in me, 'cause I was like, "This could get way worse, and so I'm gonna have the reaction as if it was way worse."


Nathan Baschez: [00:09:50] [laughs]

 What were you reacting to? Because what I remember myself saying, which is a better version of what I actually said, and then there's what you remember me saying, which I think is also a worse version of what I actually said.

 Mm, probably.

 Probably? Like, the emotional... I guess, like... sorry, not what you remember me saying, but what you remember extrapolating from what I was saying. Like, the story you told about me based on my statement rather than my statement, if that makes sense.

Dan Shipper: [00:10:12] Yeah, the story is that you're hypersensitive to your position, and you would be kind of, like, constantly vigilant about situations that were pretty normal, where I might not have given you quite as much credence as you felt like you deserved.


 Or as much stage time or whatever, and that would be a huge problem for you, and for me, it would be just be, like, "Well, I'm just trying to promote the business," or, "I'm just trying to, like, make a deal or whatever, and we shouldn't be focusing on who's getting stage time."

 Mm-hmm [affirmative].

 We should just be focusing on getting things done, basically. And so that was my narrative, is you were... you were too sensitive to that to, like, really get enough work done, or have this be an effective partnership.

 R- right,

Nathan Baschez: [00:10:45] totally. And I think, actually, now I'm remembering more about it, like, um, the reason why I brought it up as in the future, is because I was nervous that... I was trying to avoid the narrative that I suspected you had about me. So I'm like, "It's not about me and Divinations right now. It's about the future people-"

 Yeah. [laughs]

 "... that we might work with that you might ignore, because you're a dick." You know? [laughs]


 So I was very clever to do that.


 But I think you saw right through it.


Dan Shipper: [00:11:09] definitely, I mean, I just felt where it was coming from, and it's like, "You're not hiding," you know? And that fact that you're trying to makes me more suspicious, even though I really shouldn't have been suspicious, like, you were trying to make it okay, basically. But it made me way more suspicious. It was like, h- he can't even tell me exactly what he's really feeling, he has to couch it in, like, when we have more publications, you're gonna have to pay attention to those things, you can't just have Superorganizers

Nathan Baschez: [00:11:29] be your favorite.

 Yeah. It's interesting how reinforcing these-


 ... patterns of communication and behavior are, because I think it's moments like these where I came out of that conversation feeling my status more threatened than ever, because I thought you wouldn't think of me.


 You know? And you'd be pretty happy to just run away with it, and, like, make it all about you or something.


 Because of the way you reacted to what I brought up. And then I was more likely to have brought that thing up in the first place, because of interactions like this.


 In- in not healthy ways, where I'm, like, not even talking about the thing that needs to be talked about.


 I'm- I'm just sort of like, "Oh, like, you know, future people may want for you to think about them."

 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 Kind of weaselly ways of talking about it that are, like, not getting at directly what I'm feeling or thinking, and I think you were feeling from me, like, I was more sensitive to that than I would be now, and you felt this fear and sensitivity coming off of me about that situation, like, that was real. And how you interpret the cause of that is I think the most interesting thing.


 And to me, this is something we still talked about really recently, I have this view that it's, like, a lot of people's behavior is mostly context-dependent. There's certainly aspects of their personality and their psyche that are gonna come into wherever they go. But a lot of it is context-dependent. And specifically, it's a dynamic... it's, like, a loop that you have with the person.

 Mm-hmm [affirmative].

 And it's possible to get into bad loops, but the loop is like a ping-pong, and there's two players, you know?


 Like, the ping-ponging goes both ways, and, um, I just really strongly believed that that's what happens in a lot of these circumstances. And regardless about fault, which sometimes it really can be kicked off mostly by one player-


 ... once both people are playing ping-pong, you're ping-ponging, and it's just, like, a change is required on both parties-


 ... in order to-


 ... stop the ping-pong thing.

Dan Shipper: [00:13:06] It makes you wonder how many relationships that you, like, write off with someone, where you're like, this person sucks, or, like, I can't work with them, or how many relationships where you have a great relationship with someone but other people are like, "That person is terrible."


 Like, how many of those things are just driven... those narratives are just driven by these loops of expectations that reinforce each other. Um...

Nathan Baschez: [00:13:22] It's like a guitar amp with, like, feedback, where like-

 Exactly, yeah.

 ... there's a dial, you can find the dial-


 ... and just fix it-


 ... if you know how to do that.


 And you have the right mental models.

 Yeah. [laughs] It's

Dan Shipper: [00:13:31] actually just a really interesting process, because I think that happened to us. Like, there have been probably several moments where this part of my personality became clear to you, and to me, in a way that was not as threatening, and was just, like, this is just what I do sometimes.


 You know? Very specifically, like, most recently, something like this happened, we probably don't wanna go into details, because it involves someone else that's not really important to the story. But something else happened that I did that was, like a little bit inconsiderate, and I- I just hadn't thought about it. And I think to you, initially, or- or, I don't even know what it... what it looked like to you, and I don't wanna totally talk about the situation, but it looked like maybe something I had done that was, you know, going around you, or just not considerate of your position in the situation.

And then we talked about it, and I was like, "No, this is just this thing that I do sometimes," and then I think all of these situations, for me at least, from my perspective, just fell into place, where I was like, "Oh, my God, I do this all the time with Nathan, I did it when I was a kid, and my dad would kinda get angry at me for it." Um, and- and I kind of thought that I had grown out of it, but, like, I obviously haven't, you know? And- and then it connected-

 What are some

Nathan Baschez: [00:14:33] of the situations from childhood, just to put some color on that?


Dan Shipper: [00:14:37] like, my dad was always just like, "You better, like, buckle down and start paying attention, 'cause you're gonna get hit crossing the street if you keep doing this stuff." Like...

 Did you

Nathan Baschez: [00:14:44] try and cross streets without watching?


Dan Shipper: [00:14:46] yeah. It was just-

 Or, like, what are some things you did that made him react that way?

 Yeah, it's just, like, my head was in the clouds. Like, I wasn't paying attention to what was going on around me, I was, like, very much in my head, and, like, I would walk into the street without looking or whatever. Another really big thing for me, uh, which I've written about before, is, um, I think this is connected, it's not just about people, it's also about, like, small details on other things, like math, for example.

 Mm-hmm [affirmative].

 I think I un-... conceptually understood math and liked it, but also, on tests, would just make dumb mistakes that would lower my score a lot.


 And I think it's part of the same brain process that just makes me kind of skip over certain things that other people wouldn't. Like, sometimes, when things require steps, I skip steps.


 And I

Nathan Baschez: [00:15:21] don't know why.

 Yeah. My theory about you is that you have a really high tolerance for ambiguity, and things beyond a little bit off or broken.

 Mm-hmm [affirmative].

 And it just doesn't bother you, emotionally, that much. Which is an incredible superpower as an entrepreneur, because, believe me, things in every startup are, like, deeply broken.


 Like, if you're the kinda person that needs everything to be in order and figure it out, like, good luck starting your company, right? So, like, there's a lot of huge advantages to, like, you're able to just take a first step without needing it to be perfect, right? Which is amazing. And that's kind of like your superpower. That's like your mantra.


 I feel like your philosophy of like, you know, back in, like, when you were in college, and you were blogging, and your posts would go on Hacker News all the time, and everyone was like, Dan Shipper is this golden god. [laughs]



Dan Shipper: [00:16:04] back then-

 The glory days, you know?

 Yeah, the glory days.

 When I was a golden god.

 Back in-



Nathan Baschez: [00:16:08] in your job offer from random people on Hacker News glory days.


 No, but, like, a lot of your thing was about, like, hey, get out of your own head-


 ... about how... it was, like, connected to the lean startup movement.


 And it was like, just get out there and take a first step. 'Cause that genuinely is your superpower, and it's a very valuable thing that if I didn't have you pushing us in that direction, let's just say it would be more like my last company, which was a sort of perfectionist endeavor that never quite got its shit together in a lot of ways, you know?

So I really, deeply value what you bring to the table with that. There are side effects.


 Um, which is, like, you'll come up with ideas that, to me, I'm like, "But there's something wrong here." And you're like, "Yeah, but, like, just ignore that." And I'm like, "N-no, no, no, no." Like, I cannot ignore... the details that are wrong just jump out to me and present themselves as giant exclamation marks that I cannot think about anything else until it's fixed.

 Mm-hmm [affirmative].

 For whatever reason, that's just, like, how- how I am about that kinda stuff.


 And so I think we complement each other in a way, 'cause there's moments when I think it helps to loop me in, because there's just stuff that I might notice or consider. But it's really good for us ultimately to be pulled along at, like, a faster cadence than I would naturally do. [laughs]


 And a more incremental cadence than I would naturally do. That's like, it's fine if this isn't perfect, it's fine if this is incomplete or a little bit broken, we've got to get something out there and just get started. But at the same time, maybe we can intelligently blend our-


Dan Shipper: [00:17:25] ... strengths or whatever.

 It is interesting, 'cause it's so to cliché to say that, like, the ways that we're different or alike are our greatest strengths or whatever, but, like, I do honestly feel like-

 [laughs] Captain Planet vibes.

 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do honestly feel like the things about you that annoyed me the most, and I think the things about me that annoyed you the most, now that we can kind of unpack where they come from, it's like, "Oh, yeah, you- you just care a lot about small details." To me, it was like, "He's being pedantic. Why can't he just, like, think about this without worrying about the details?" You know? Those things actually ended up being, like, now that we can label it, it's much easier for me to just be like, "Oh, yeah, he's gonna worry about the details, and that's actually helpful.

 That's great, 'cause you don't have to as much.

 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's- that's actually helpful. [laughs] 'Cause I can just do something, and it, like, kinda works or whatever, and then you can kinda come in and be like-


 "No, no, here's how we make it better," or whatever." Or you can be, like, super-perfectionist about- about something, and I can just be like, "Let's just do the first small thing, and then we can figure the rest out later."


 And that has been really helpful. And I love finding those things, it's like, are... do you love details, or can you just do something without understanding it, that are kind of parts of people that you wouldn't think about it when you're thinking about personalities.

 It's not a big

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:27] five personality trait, per se

 Yeah, exactly.

 Although maybe it is. I don't know, conscientiousness may be I don't know.


Dan Shipper: [00:18:31] but I just love that, and I wish that it was possible to know that about people earlier, or- or just have more vocabulary to talk about it, 'cause all of us have all these, like, different dimensions, and each person, like, has these... has these things that once you've been working together for a while, and you can talk about it-


 ... like, you can start to recognize their strengths, and rec- recognize how- how they fit together, and I... I think that that's one of the most

Nathan Baschez: [00:18:51] fascinating things.

 Totally. So I think if we had a similar conversation now, with, like, going back to the conversation that was the- the root of this story, like, I think we would handle it pretty differently.


 And it's really interesting to contrast, like, probably, we would get on the call, you'd start talking about how we could do this publication together, that's like an extension of Superorganizers


 And I would just, in the call, be like, "Yeah, and like, there's a lot of tie-ins with Divinations, too."


 And you'd be like, "Oh, yeah. That's sick." And it would be, like, a non-issue, and instead, we had, like, back then, probably about an hour and a half of grief, and then some, like, loss of trust in the trust bank account with each other.


 And it's really fascinating, like, just to make that super concrete, the contrast between those two scenarios, this is why, honestly, we do couples therapy. This is why we do this podcast. This is our grand unified theory of, like, how to do things with people. [laughs]


 It's like, you can get in these negative patterns that's, like, a negative feedback loop, where it's, like, creates this screeching noise that makes it impossible to work on anything together.


 And it's important to recognize it for what it is, which is, like, to some degree, a byproduct of people's fears and anxieties, but you can, like, tamp it down if you get those things under control a little bit better.

 Yeah. Sounds like it.

 But two have to be willing to play the game, and come to it on equal terms, of, like, this is a ping-pong match that we wanna unwind, rather than a, like, something

Dan Shipper: [00:20:10] else.

 Definitely. It's- it's kind of interesting, 'cause it's... y- you really have to have two good actors trying to figure it out, and while you're doing that, you- you're trying to also suss out whether each... the other person is a good actor, so it makes it, like, feel precious.

Nathan Baschez: [00:20:23] But-

 I'm not trying as hard as you are, though,

Dan Shipper: [00:20:25] to be clear. [laughs]

 Definitely. I'm- I'm way

Nathan Baschez: [00:20:26] more, like-

 Dan's very... [laughs] When someone gets a little close to Dan, he freaks out.


 And for a moment, thinks that they're a terrible person.

 [laughs] [crosstalk 00:20:34]

 Well, they might be a terrible

Dan Shipper: [00:20:35] person.

 It's like crossing the chasm, you know? It's like-

 Yeah, it's a really rocky chasm. [laughs]

 Yeah, there's, like, a little bit of a chasm there. It's like... [laughs] But once you're in, you're in. Um... [laughs] Yeah, I- I think that the- the key point is, it's like, it not only feels better to work this way, it's, like, more efficient and more productive.


 Like, you can pack way more into each communication, 'cause there's enough trust to not misinterpret.


 So you don't have to be as careful about what you say, and then you don't have to spend a bunch of time unpacking what you just said, unless you do a podcast like us doing exactly that. [laughs]

Nathan Baschez: [00:21:06] Yeah.


 But it's interesting, 'cause it's, like, I hesitate to wade into current events or whatever, but, like, it seems like a lot... this is a lot of what was going on at Basecamp.


 You know? Was like, okay, if you're listening to this in the future, this week, as we're recording this, Basecamp is basically falling apart over acrimony related to, I think, ultimately, just people not listening to each other, but mostly, specifically, the leadership not listening to their employees, and, um, I think that, um, how you scale this with a group of people is something that ... is never something that I've had to do. But it feels like if you get obsessed with it, and you really like it, you've got a much better chance of building a healthy, high-performing culture and company than if you view this an annoying thing that distracts you from playing the chess game of strategy or something.

Dan Shipper: [00:21:49] Yeah. Totally. I mean, like, it makes sense, 'cause at the end of day, another truism is, "Business is about people," and, like, if you believe that, which we both do, then figuring out how to help people work together and communicate ef- effectively, is, like, the number-one thing you have to do. It's more important than writing code, it's more important than design, it's more important than your strategy ideas. It's, like, the thing. You know?

 It's the

Nathan Baschez: [00:22:08] pre-condition.


 'Cause if you've got the feedback loop going, and the guitar amp is screeching, and you're playing ping-pong furiously at each other-


 ... rather than talking, you're not talking, you're debating and shooting little bullets back and forth, you know?


 And that's not, like, actual... A, it's no fun, and B... that's one thing, actually, that I have a high tolerance for.


 I think you have a high tolerance for ambiguity or things being broken. I have a tol-... high tolerance for debating.

 Yeah. Yeah.

 And it feels uncomfortable to other people way faster than it feels uncomfortable to me.

Dan Shipper: [00:22:36] Yeah. Which maybe we should unpack in a future episode.

 Well, in high

Nathan Baschez: [00:22:39] school, I was a debater. A

Dan Shipper: [00:22:40] master.

 You were primed for it. You were primed for it. It's not your fault.

Nathan Baschez: [00:22:43] Well, this has been a good one.

 Yeah. It was good.

 All right. Well, I'll, uh, talk to you again soon.

 Yes. [laughs] Talk to you again soon. See you next time.

 [laughs] All right. See you.