Transcript: ‘Prompt Your Way to Personal Growth’

The transcript of AI & I with Steve Schlafman is below. Watch on X or YouTube, or listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

Timestamps

1. Introduction: 00:01:07
2. The power of treating your startup as an evolving entity: 00:03:00
3. Building a business as a means of self-expression: 00:05:27
4. Prompting ChatGPT to do Jungian dream work: 00:17:45
5. Why you should listen to this episode, especially if it feels too “woo’” for you: 00:21:44
6. Visualizing Steve’s dream with ChatGPT: 00:36:31
7. Creating living records of meaning experiences with AI: 00:47:38
8. If you tend to think faster than you can type, lean into voice interfaces: 00:49:37
9. How Steve writes with AI: 00:52:13
10. How AI will disrupt traditional coaching and therapy: 00:54:03

Transcript

Dan Shipper (00:01:07)

Steve, welcome to the show.

Steve Schlafman (00:01:09)

Hey, Dan. So good to see you, brother.

Dan Shipper (00:01:10)

So good to see you too. So, for people who don't know, you are the founder of Downshift. You are a former VC and now an executive coach who specializes in transitions for high-performing people like founders. Your main claim to fame, of course, if you're an original Every investor. And one thing that we were talking about, which I kind of wanted to start with is, I think you were reflecting a little bit on, I guess, the journey that you've seen us take and what that says about what it's like to start something new vs. what people typically expect to start up to look like. Can you just tee us up for a second?

Steve Schlafman (00:02:15)

Yeah. Well, Dan and I were reflecting for a few minutes before the show began to roll. And one of the things that I really appreciated about Dan when he was starting his fundraising process was he was like, I don't think I want this to be a venture-backed company. I don't even know what it's going to become. But hey, we're going to build something special. And I think there was something really magical about that because he wasn't here kind of giving this grand pitch and this vision of the way the world was going to be and how everyone's going to fit into it. And as I've been sitting with it and watching you and the way you've built it, I'd imagine that that version of you five years ago couldn't have predicted whatever it was going to become. 

Dan Shipper (00:02:52)

No way. No way.

Steve Schlafman (00:02:54)

And as I think about us building Downshift. I see Downshift as a container for emergence. So I think a lot of the time in startup culture, we have this idea and we see it as a company from day one, and then it becomes a thing that's rigid. And instead of seeing it as a company in the earliest days, just seeing it as a container for emergence.

Dan Shipper (00:03:20)

I love it. How do you define emergence in this context?

Steve Schlafman (00:03:27)

I love the idea of the adjacent possible. Stuart Kauffman at the Santa Fe Institute coined it. Steven Johnson popularized it. They use it in a technological sense, where there's a set of capabilities and that current set of capabilities eventually unlocks the adjacent possible, which is an entirely new set of capabilities. And so the way I like to think about emergence is that we have that— In a company, there's a set of ideas, a set of capabilities, values, and as we move through time and space, we learn. And the container emerges and the opportunities emerge and things are proven, disproven, and it becomes almost like this organic process vs. this process that's forced.

Dan Shipper (00:04:28)

Yeah. Here's how I think about this. And I think this fits in really well, to your point. And I've only recently been able to sort of articulate this, but I'm curious what you think. I think it'll be interesting. I think the thing that you're pointing to, when I showed up and was fundraising and wasn't like, here's a big thing, it's definitely going to change the world or whatever. But I was like, here's some things I know. And here's some things I think. And I want to create a space to play around basically. I think the reason why the other way of doing things is sometimes helpful, but a big reason why it's not helpful and why it becomes rigid is because that is basically people doing what they think they should do or telling the story they think they need to tell in order to raise money. And sometimes that is actually true. You actually do need to tell that story. But as I've run Every for for a longer and longer period of time, and just generally have been starting companies for basically my whole life, I've started to realize how much of a company building is an expression of who you are as a founder. And how much better companies go when a company is an expression of who you authentically are vs. who you think you should be or think you need to be or whatever.

And the reason why people end up doing those pitches is because they're not particularly comfortable with who they are and they want to start a company in order to be seen differently or whatever, which is totally real. I do that too. I did that a lot. I raised money in this way that was like, hey, I don't know what this is, blah, blah, whatever. But even still, right after I raised money, I just pretended basically to be a venture-backed CEO for the next two years, which was horrible for me and horrible for everyone, because I was like, not at all. Then I was grinding against my nature and once I really just admitted, hey, I want to be a writer and I really want Every to be a great business. I want to be an institution, but I want to do it by spending most of my time writing or at least half my time writing, which I know I'm not supposed to do as a venture-backed founder. You're not supposed to do that. But as soon as I did that, everything sort of unlocked in this kind of crazy way. And I was actually extremely important for that because I realized that I wanted to be a writer and that I wanted to start a business, but I also wanted to have it be part of building a great business. And then I asked you, has anyone else done this, which is an un-Google-able question. You cannot Google for that, right?

Steve Schlafman (00:07:16)

You cannot. Absolutely not.

Dan Shipper (00:07:16)

ChatGPT was like, yeah, Sam Harris for example, a writer and podcaster has a Waking Up app. It's a gigantic, amazing business. Or Bill Simmons, a podcaster who started the Ringer and Grantland and sold to Spotify for a couple hundred million bucks. And I was like, oh, wow, I can do this. And there are patterns for how to do it, but it's not talked about at all because it's not the typical Silicon Valley story. And I bring all this up because I think that sort of the way that things end up emerging organically is you're in a position where you can allow yourself to be sort of your full self and that is going to be that business that you build is going to be a sort of unique shape. That is actually sort of illegible because it's hard to describe in terms of past patterns. I think those are the best businesses. And obviously, you can go back once you have it and start to put words to it and start to describe it. But the ones that are the businesses that are most legible are often the businesses where you're fitting into a pre-established box that works. That's actually not particularly compatible with you or compatible with the world. Anyway, now I'm rambling, but I thought you'd like that.

Steve Schlafman (00:08:32)

I love it. And it's interesting. So much was coming up as I was listening to that first, I'm thinking about one of my clients right now that started a unicorn, his previous business, he went and raised venture capital for his second business and what he's realizing is that it's boxing him in. It's almost as if his creativity and his genius isn't able to fully flourish because he feels the pressure of having to build a certain kind of business that's no longer aligned with who he is. 

And I just think that there's something really magical. And I think about Downshift and the way that we're building it. You use the word playground. I like to think of it as a sandbox. And for us, it's like a playpen where we know we're really passionate about this problem of helping professionals through transition. The way in which it's ultimately going to manifest, right now we do one on one coaching and we have our decelerator program, but we're already starting to see how it's going to change and it's going to change not just because what we're learning from the market, but because who we're realizing we are as human beings and who I am as a founder. And the last thing I would say, so it's like you're reading my journal. I wrote that the next chapter of Downshift is going to be like me really leaning into my genius and the things that I love to do, which is write and create and coach. And if I'm not doing those things, then I'm not going to be happy and it's not going to be the most aligned fullest expression of me.

Dan Shipper (00:10:28)

I love that. I love that. And it's so funny how hard those choices are. And it’s like, oh, I gotta make that choice again, but once you do it, even if it's scary, at least in my experience, it tends to work, which is great. Maybe I'm lucky. Because my passion isn't playing classical flute or something, but I love business. Another another way I've been playing around with thinking about it and describing it is that I think a previous version of business, the way that we thought about it is it's sort of science and building a business is sort of like a machine and you are a machine and therefore you need to think about it in those very reduced terms. And so if you're a unicorn founder and obviously the next thing you want to do is build the biggest thing possible. And the way to do that is to raise money from the most impressive VCs. And then you're like—

Steve Schlafman (00:11:29)

Yeah, go to Sequoia or any number of great funds.

Dan Shipper (00:11:34)

And you're like, cool, I'm going to be a machine and it's going to be a machine and whatever. And then you're like, actually, I feel very boxed in. I don't really, and I think that what that boxed in feeling indicates to me is there's a different way of building businesses that looks at building businesses as art as a creative expression. And that's not for everybody. Not all people need to think that way, but that's definitely how I feel. And that's sort of the happiest that I am. If you're building businesses as art, the choices that you make are going to be different because they're going to be about how you feel and whether you're in that sort of creative mode enough. And I think you can actually also build a really great, really big business doing that, but it's just going to look a lot different than other sorts of businesses. And you have to deal with the kind of side-eye you get from people for a while. It was really hard for a couple of years, building Every and be like, I'm building a newsletter—people didn't like that.

Steve Schlafman (00:12:32)

Newsletters can be very good businesses.

Dan Shipper (00:12:34)

I mean, but not to the people that we hang out with—or not all of them, but some of them. Even if your business is making $1 million a year, that's nothing—it's not even worth your time.

Steve Schlafman (00:12:47)

Yeah. And I think though, you're one of those founders that are unwilling to just stay on a track and you're open to what wants to emerge.

Dan Shipper (00:13:01)

I really try to be.

Steve Schlafman (00:13:03)

And look at Every now. It’s very much a playground for you.

Dan Shipper (00:13:11)

Yeah. And I think you made a lot of the same decisions. It's really hard. You had a really great VC job and you could have done that forever. And it's really hard to go off and do what you did. And I want to start to transition this conversation because I know you have a lot of AI stuff to share with us. One of the things that I think is interesting, I've only been watching from afar, so you tell me, but I feel about a year ago. I was writing a lot of takes about AI and therapy and coaching and blah, blah, blah, blah.

Steve Schlafman (00:13:40)

I saw those.

Dan Shipper (00:13:41)

Yeah, I definitely felt like you were sort of wary of it taking away the human element. And maybe be wary of using it. And I don't know what's changed, but I think that something has changed. Maybe you're still wary of that, which I think is a legit thing to be worried about, but to be clear, you at least seem to have found things that you are enthusiastic about. So give us a high-level overview of where you are in your kind of AI thinking and journey and where you started and where you are now.

Steve Schlafman (00:14:11)

Yeah. A few caveats before I share. First, I am not on the bleeding edge of AI. Second is I have been a lover of technology my entire life and so I've been very fortunate to see a number of pretty massive trends—internet, mobile, social, crypto. What I'm gonna say is that AI is the most profound thing I've ever seen. By each passing day, I just cannot believe the power, the cost, the depth, the breadth, and I really believe that we're on the cusp where—using my language, transition—we're on the cusp of what I've been calling the great transition and I don't necessarily think that we're prepared yet to based on what's coming.

Dan Shipper (00:15:16)

Interesting. Transition from what to what?

Steve Schlafman (00:15:18)

I don't know. I'm not a futurist, but I can feel it. I can feel that there's something about this technology that is so powerful that it's gonna fundamentally reshape the way that everything is done in a way that we haven't seen before. And I see it in my own life. I see it in my own life.

Dan Shipper (00:15:41)

Well, take us through. Pick something concrete that you're using it for that you want to talk about.

Steve Schlafman (00:15:46)

Well, I don't know if your audience would consider this concrete, but I have a lot of fun with it. So in my work, one of the things I'm focused on right now is, I love Bill Plotkin, who wrote a book called Soulcraft. He runs an organization called the Animas Valley Institute. He's an eco-depth psychologist.

Dan Shipper (00:16:09)

That's cool. What's eco-depth?

Steve Schlafman (00:16:11)

So eco-depth psychology is a brand of depth psychology that uses kind of the inner section of nature and psyche. And the exploration of nature and how it impacts the psyche at the deepest levels, the therapy occurs in nature or you're using natural archetypes like a waterfall or sunlight to help explore how you feel about something both.

Dan Shipper (00:16:41)

That's really interesting because I was living in Panama for the last month or so. And I lived in this cottage in the jungle. Yeah, there were no glass windows. It was all screens. And so I was just literally outside for a month, hearing the wind in the trees and the birds and you could hear the ocean. You can hear monkeys and it was such a beautiful spiritual experience. I miss the trees—just watching trees. There's so much depth and richness in nature that there is a kind of richness in a city, but it's just very different. And anyway, you're just making me think of that and how amazing that was. It was very important to me.

Steve Schlafman (00:17:29)

And we're wired to want to want to be in those environments, but coming back to Plotkin. So I've been going really deep and part of his work and like going deep into the psyche is dream work. So I have been working with ChatGPT as a Jungian dream analyst.

Dan Shipper (00:17:52)

Me too. That's awesome.

Steve Schlafman (00:17:54)

I've been recording my dreams every morning using audio, which we should come back to as a form of input, because it's something I've been obsessed with and thinking about, but—sorry, not audio, voice. I've been really obsessed with voice, but I've been recording my dreams and having these deep, what Jung used to call active imagination, where you're going back into the dream and then re-experiencing it and then taking action. So if I can share my screen for a second I would love to show you kind of what I am doing around dream analysis. So here it is the output, I put it in a Notion just so you could get a sense. And so this is literally verbatim, the expression. So I had a dream where I was setting up a base camp on a big mountain. Basically it was a tent and it wasn't an expedition, but it was a solo retreat partway up the mountain. And the task was to go up, set up a tent and get ready. Then I could come back down. But the understanding was that I would have to return to the tent later. So then I had all these emotions in the dream. And then I was walking back up and then I found a mask and here it says on the one point I was making my way up the mountain. I found something buried in the snow, a knitted ski mask that covered the whole head with cutouts for eyes and mouse eyes and mouth. It was made of multicolored thread. I remember digging it out and deciding to keep it. So then I basically have this expanded dream analysis prompt, where it gives me basically an analysis of the dream and what the various images represent. 

And one of the things that I've been really focused on is really cultivating the four windows of knowing. So the four windows of knowing are feeling, thinking, sensing, and imagining. And the feeling and imaginal realms are largely ignored. And so I'm studying to be a somatic coach, learning Hakomi. So that sort of explores the feeling realm. But imagery is this realm that has largely gone unexplored. So I'm using ChatGPT to explore these images. So there's sort of the mountain, the fear of the night, the buried mask—What does that mean? Here, in ancient rites, masks were worn by initiates to embody a new self to protect against the forces or allow access to hidden wisdom. And then it gives reflections. So then what ends up happening is now there's these active imagination prompts. So then what I do is a whole reflection. I did a whole journaling session based on what came up and then I read it back using voice into ChatGPT. And then I get another, a whole rich depth into what just came up the mountain reflects where I am in my life—downshift, family, spiritual pursuits. I'm now standing at this threshold, right? Fear of going up the mountain at night, right? There's a part of my life that feels like I'm returning to the mountain at night. Is the part of me that can sense there's changes and fear of it—

Dan Shipper (00:21:39)

Right. I want to pause you. Let me pause you. This is really great. I'm 100 percent with you. I use this for this all the time, but I want to back up and set the scene or set the table for maybe someone who's listening or watching that comes from the startup world, comes to the tech world, and thinks of themselves a little bit more hard boiled. And this is a little woo-woo for me. Tell me about what got you into this and what you feel the value is for you. So that we can bring those people along too.

Steve Schlafman (00:22:13)

Yeah. Well, I want to go back to the four windows of knowing, right? There are four ways of experiencing the world. There's the rational mind, the thinking, there's the senses. And then there's the feeling in the imaginal realms. These are just different ways into experience. And if there's a startup founder or a rationalist listening to this, thinking is very important. But it's just one frame of seeing the world and interacting with reality. And I think there's an opportunity here. What I'm realizing is I actually think back to this experience I had eight years ago. I'm at breakfast with a friend of mine, Jonathan Basker, who's a long-time coach. And I remember I was complaining about something in my VC firm and he's like, where in your body do you feel that? And I'm like, get the fuck out of here. I'm not going there with you. And because I used to be that hyper-rationalist. And what's happened is, as I've gone deeper into these various windows of knowing, what I'm realizing is there's so much intelligence. There's so much intelligence in our nervous system and our feelings. And now what I'm realizing in this imaginary realm. I had a dream the other night, a different dream, where I was in a convenience store and I ran into my twin brother, and I broke down crying. And my twin brother was my best friend and he and I have grown apart and that day I called him, I shared the dream report with him and I was like, look, I want to get back. And it's like that image of us hugging us, of me breaking down and crying. There was something about that. And by exploring this dream, it really allowed me to feel into, what was this trying to tell me?

Dan Shipper (00:24:28)

I love that. I mean, I think another way to talk about what you're saying is or a common rationalist objection is something, it's just a story. You’re just telling yourself a story and I love to just take out the just in that sentence to be like, you're telling yourself a story. And sometimes you like stories and stories are good. And sometimes you don't like stories and they feel like they're fake or they don't resonate with you. But learning to tell yourself stories is incredibly valuable. And you tell yourself stories whether you want to or not. That's just part of the human condition, but being being skilled at it and feeling not only are you telling yourself stories, but maybe you're tapping into some stories that's given to you or in the world or is somehow in some other part of you that's hard to access is an incredibly important part of being a human or flourishing or whatever for certain types of people. And that for me, that's also been super valuable and important. 

It's funny that you bring up a dream in a grocery store because I had a dream in December and I was in a grocery store—or you said convenience store, but this is a grocery store—and I was with a VC type, who's someone that you and I both know. He's very hard-driving. I won't say his name. But I was with him. I've never actually met him. I was with him and we both had grocery carts. And we were getting stuff together for some of that we were going to and he was going and putting a bunch of stuff in his cart and my cart was empty and I was telling him about Every and very excited to tell him about Every, which is an interesting and unusual thing. Because I think normally in those situations, I might be a little bit worried or nervous. It seems like things are going well, but I was very excited about it. 

But then I noticed he was putting all this stuff in his cart and I had nothing to do. I wasn't putting anything in my cart and I was like, hey, should I go do something? Should I go give me a list of things to get. And he was like, no, I got it. And I felt very self-conscious about having an empty cart. I just spent a bunch of time talking to ChatGPT about that and it was really interesting. It was so interesting because that feeling of I should be able to fill this up. I should be filling this up. I should be doing more work. Doing stuff to fill this up is actually a very prevalent feeling in my life. It's not so much like my work life. That's pretty. I feel like my cart's pretty full, but there's some stuff in my personal life, my dating life or whatever, where I'm trying to fill up the cart and it's not quite working.

And I feel self-conscious that I have an empty cart. I'm single right now. And anyway, what ChatGPT helped me realize is well, one is all of that. And then two, there's a way to look at an empty cart as like, I need to fill it. And then there's a way to look at it as a symbol of openness and freedom and creativity. There's space and space can be great. So I just made January my month of the empty cart, and deleted all my dating apps. And it was very powerful for me. And I say all that. One, because I'm curious what you have to say about it. But two, I think people don't think that smart people can't think in this way or feel in this way or whatever. And I think it's an incredibly important and valuable part of my life. And it sounds like the same is true for you. And this tool, because I have a regular therapist. I don't have a Jungian therapist. This tool is so good at just helping pull that stuff out.

Steve Schlafman (00:28:14)

Well, and that's the thing. I've never explored dreams. This is a relatively new phenomenon for me, but because I paid ChatGPT $20 a month, I now have access to a scaled Jungian dream analyst. And listen I don't want to say it's a substitute. I have done dream work with a Soulcraft guide at an Animas retreat. And that's an entirely different experience, but to be able to just jump in and do this, it's astounding. And what I found is that the images and the dreams and the metaphors are scarily related to what I'm experiencing in my life.

Dan Shipper (00:29:00)

What is the prompt you're using? Can you show us that?

Steve Schlafman (00:29:04)

Yeah, let me pull it up. So here is the full feed. So I guess I need to go all the way to the top and I will refine it over time. So, this one, I clearly didn't overengineer the prompt. So, I asked for a primer on Jungian dream analysis. I just spoke it into my mobile phone and then here it kind of gave us a—

Dan Shipper (00:29:33)

Scroll back up because I want to read it for people who are listening. “So I wanted to start to do some dream work with you. You are a Jungian analyst and you're going to first give me a primer on dream analysis. And how to share the images that are emerging from my dream space. And so basically, yeah, you're asking to just write a guide as if they're a Jungian analyst that the AI was a Jungian analyst who had worked with you in Vienna.

Steve Schlafman (00:29:59)

Yeah. And then what happens is, okay, here's how to share your dream. And then here's the first dream report that I got. So this one was basically like, the kitchen oatmeal and a specific request. And then I had a second dream that first night, I suppose. And I said, okay thank you. I want a more comprehensive dream analysis for the kitchen dream along with a guide for integration and reflection. And then I basically am instructing to really zero in on it. So now I'm getting kind of a more high-fidelity report on the dream. And the different images within that one specific dream. So then I'm getting integration prompts and reflections. Now it's starting to bring in active imagination exercises. And then you get pivotal thoughts. And then you can see my response. I'm like, wow, this is so helpful. My mind is kind of blown right now. I'm currently wrestling with this tension between creating Downshift, which is requiring a lot more of my time then, and it's cutting into time for all these other things. And so what's then happened is as I've gone down into the thread, I'm now asking it to actually summarize my dream and edit it. And so I evolve the prompt as I go deeper into the exploration because I'm getting a better sense as to what's really speaking to me.

Dan Shipper (00:31:48)

That's interesting. Have you ever experimented? Because if you read like any of the Robert Johnson stuff, one of the things he has you do is like for each dream image. So each sort of frame of the dream, you say all of your different associations with different things in the dream. And that's sort of how it starts to help you connect it to your actual life. Have you ever done anything like that?

Steve Schlafman (00:32:10)

Not yet, but I'm definitely heading in that direction. But something else I can show you that I did have is this really crazy medicine journey. Here, let me pull this up. So I had this really crazy medicine journey in November. So let me share my screen.

Dan Shipper (00:32:38)

Medicine, we're talking about—

Steve Schlafman (00:32:39)

Psilocybin. So this was basically a trip report. So the day after I journal for probably an hour and a half, and this basically summarizes that journal entry. Again, I just used voice-to-text using my phone. And then what happened is, it gave me sort of integration and next steps. So I'm like, okay, this is how I'm integrating the practice. So here it's like, okay, the big theme is around being of service to my family, deeply loving my life, honoring my body as a vessel of life, surrendering ownership and control, strengthening connection to my daughters. 

So then what happened is like, okay, now you're a shaman and give me the sort of response and a very different voice and what are the different energies. And so now you're seeing different archetypes coming up here. It's the servant, the lover, oneness with nature, death and grief are gateways. And then here are the points that I love—integration practices. So what started to happen from this was like, okay, here are different experiments and what, what, what began to. Kind of come out of this was I had an ego death in that journey. 

And so what happened is, I designed using ChatGPT, a fire ceremony where it was December 13 in 25 degree weather. And it was a second solo medicine journey that I effectively planted and basically an entire. Kind of run a show that I ended up burning at the beginning of the ceremony to basically just be with the medicine and let it do its work. But what happened is, it was this whole amazing where I basically walked in with my VC clothing. an old outfit that I used to wear and I literally stripped down naked, burned it, put on basically a robe and then had this crazy experience, huge emotional relief. And then what happened is, I then read my journal entry back and it gave me, you like release and transformation, the images that I sat with—Eros and life force, communicate with the elements, and then it has more integration.

So then how do I continue to deepen this experience? And so I guess the point that I'm getting at with all of this is what I'm starting to realize. Is that? AI is like the ultimate integrator of these, of these peak experiences of these rich experiences. And it helps us deepen in ways that we wouldn't have been able to before. And that's what blows my mind. It's like the speed in the depth at which I'm growing. It's like I'm starting to realize just through this imagery work with medicine dreams again. The old me would have been like, dude, you're woo-woo. You're going crazy. And what I'm realizing is that AI has a real opportunity to dramatically expand the consciousness of people.

Dan Shipper (00:37:07)

I agree. I want to do something with you that I think you'll like. So one of the earliest things I did in this realm is I started using ChatGPT to visualize my dreams. And then I built a little text bot where you could text it and send it your dream and it would send you an image back. I would love to do that with you. The text bot’s not working anymore, but do you want to pick a dream or something from your journey that you want to see? And let's throw it into ChatGPT and see what it looks like.

Steve Schlafman (00:37:38)

Yeah, let's do it.

Dan Shipper (00:37:39)

All right. So here we are. We're back. Okay. So I'm going to take your dream. I'm going to throw it in here and on ChatGPT, and we can start with 4o. I actually haven't done image generation in chat in a long time. I'm going to do this and I'm going to say, this is a dream my friend Steve had. I want to visualize it. Specifically, I want to see the ski mask on the mountain. Make it dreamy and ethereal and highly saturated. All right. Let's see what it does. What do you think?

Steve Schlafman (00:38:46)

I love it.

Dan Shipper (00:38:58)

Does it capture what you saw or would you want modifications?

Steve Schlafman (00:39:07)

Softer color tones, also the mountain looked more like Mount Rainier than, than something that's that rugged.

Dan Shipper (00:39:18)

And was it this big? Was it coming out like this or was it—?

Steve Schlafman (00:39:21)

It was in the snow. It was kind of like, I sort of stumbled upon it. So it wasn't on top.

Dan Shipper (00:39:33)

Let's see if we can do it. So I said, can we do softer color tones? The mountain looked more like Mount Rainier and the mass was in the snow. You could stumble upon it.

Steve Schlafman (00:39:46)

Not right. I think the first one definitely had more of an emotional reaction.

Dan Shipper (00:39:59)

It got you somewhere, right? Let me just see. Because I think what happened here? This is a dream. The mountain looked like Mount Rainier. Soft color tones, and I want it to be like, what I'm thinking is sort of like a close up of it in the snow.

Steve Schlafman (00:40:21)

Yeah. Great.

Dan Shipper (00:40:29)

So we may not get mountains. We may not get actual mountain vibes if it's a close up, but—

Steve Schlafman (00:40:33)

It's okay. It just loves this—

Dan Shipper (00:40:49)

I know. I love it. All right. Well, at least the first one you did, which is pretty cool—

Steve Schlafman (00:40:59)

Yeah, I definitely had a visceral reaction.

Dan Shipper (00:41:02)

And I think that is so interesting. Sometimes you get that and it's really cool. I have this whole thing like my phone background, which I can't show you because I'm using my phone as a camera. But one of the archetypes that I'm really into is Hermes as a sort of a liminal boundary-crossing god. And in particular, one of the manifestations that I like is twilight, like the time of day, not the book. And so I just have a bunch of visualizations of twilight that I like to use as my phone background and it's really cool. I love it.

Steve Schlafman (00:41:37)

Yeah. And there's something about Hermes that really speaks to you, right? What it represents. And I think that's the power of the imaginal realm. Is that it allows us to connect to these archetypes, these images, these symbols that are deeply embedded in us and that it really is able to unlock a whole dimension of being when we allow ourselves to go there.

Dan Shipper (00:42:07)

Totally. Any other AI use cases you're excited to share?

Steve Schlafman (00:42:14)

What else would be fun to share? I mean, there's so many of them. I mean, one that I've been doing, and this is a little obvious. Let's see which one would be. So this one was actually really interesting. It's along the lines of continuing to deepen my Soulcraft work. Let me share my screen. So recently, as part of the Soulcraft work, they have something that's called a Mandalora, which they think of as inter interlocking circles where you explore different parts of your psyche. So it could be the part of you that longs to rest and your achiever, or it could be the part of you that's afraid to make a really big decision and the part of you that wants to move forward. Those are just two examples. 

And so what I did is I did what I've connected with, in the Soulcraft lane, this isn't going to make a lot of sense to your audience unless they've explored some of the work of Animas, but basically my soul is named Fire Snail, which is like fiery, creative, slow, patient, moving, sort of deeply embedded urge within myself. And a lot of the time it's in opposition to my achiever. And so I had this awesome session with a guide where we talked about different practices. And one was, can you have your soul, Fire Snail, face off against your achiever? And so what I did is I recorded in my room. I set up a speaker and I divided it in two. And the idea is I embody the achiever. And then I embodied my soul. And then I sat in the middle of it and let the tension of the two kinds work its magic on me. And this is literally exactly what I said. As I was going through it, and I'm in the most unenlightened state when I'm in my achiever. Right? And it's like, let's go. Let's fucking go. There's no time to waste. Right? And I just leaned hard into it. And I had this whole output of this experience of exploring like the deep internal stories and beliefs of my achiever and then what I did is I then like sat down, I started to take some breaths and then I went into what does it feel like to be my most embodied, spacious, patient version of myself and then I felt into what wanted to emerge. And so the point that I'm getting at, as I go through all this is like the depth at which you're now able to explore your psyche is unlike anything. And now this is what happened when I was holding in the tension where I was sitting in between and realizing like, oh, actually the achiever isn't bad. It's just when it's driving and it's not being led by anything. And I had this crazy realization where I was like, actually what happens because the achiever is all ego. So what happens when the achiever, the ego, is in service of the soul. And that was a really groundbreaking realization that I had through this exploration.

Dan Shipper (00:44:54)

What do you feel like when you're an achiever?

Steve Schlafman (00:45:56)

I think that, and I should say that this came out of core wound work that I did also with ChatGPT, where I basically did a deep dive into my core wound which is basically the wound of unworthiness. That nothing is ever going to be enough. I'm not enough. The things I do aren't enough. I can't measure up. And so, what happened was, what I ultimately realized is that I had my core wound that formed when I was really young. This is predominantly the paternal wound, the wound that I got from my father. And springing upside, outside coming up from that wound was my achiever and a bunch of different parts that were all about driving me forward, not being able to sit still, always having to prove myself not feeling enough or worthy. And that's a variety if you're using internal family systems, a number of managers and exiles. So I was able to, even before I got to that. The way I got to that was through core wound work with ChatGPT. So it's just crazy even how it's just unfolding where it's like a new door opens and I'm like, oh, I did not expect that this was the door I'm opening and I go through it and it's like, okay, I'm going to go through and I'm going to go deeper into it.

Dan Shipper (00:47:31)

Yeah. I think that one of the really cool things about that you're using this for is. And it's one of the things that is so hard about working with actual humans is that different people have different specialties and different perspectives and often you just end up matched with someone like, if you're doing coaching or therapy or whatever, you just end up matching with someone that has some perspective. Who knows if that's exactly the right thing for you and what I love about what you're doing, and I think it's just generally a strength of these models is you can go through every conceivable modality and discover different modalities and different viewpoints really quickly to find stuff that actually resonates with you. And then if you really like it, you can go find an actual practitioner.

Steve Schlafman (00:48:18)

Well, and that's what I'm doing. I'm studying Hakomi right now. I'm in a two-year training with the institute and I'm working with an incredible Hakomi therapist. I mean, she's phenomenal. And I asked her permission. I'm like, can I record these sessions? And so what I'll do is: I've created a whole custom prompt to record our sessions and spit out basically an output that then becomes the integration point. So the thing that I'm really getting excited about, and I use this in my coaching practice as well, where I have custom prompts for my clients. And then I share the notes with them. And to me, the magic is that you get the notes, you get the download, and then that becomes the integration point, the in between and the depth that I'm now able to go. I think about when I got sober a decade ago, I would go to therapy, I'd have a conversation, I'd be like, see you later. And then an hour later, I totally forgot what we talked about. Now I have like a high-fidelity snapshot of the conversation.

Dan Shipper (00:49:34)

Yeah, it's so hard to make progress if it's like once a week and once a week is the only time you're thinking about it and having a little record and buddy that can kind of push you in the right ways in between is amazing.

Steve Schlafman (00:49:54)

Yeah. and I think there's something that I want to touch on because. I think I actually decided to leave Twitter over the weekend, but before I departed, I saw a tweet from you about voice interfaces. And I had this major realization over the summer, my wife got me the book, How to ADHD. I was diagnosed with ADD when I was a kid and I was like, oh, I'm totally over ADD. I did mediation and now I’m enlightened now—obviously joking. And she's like, I want you to read this book. It's recommended. And I had this epiphany where I'm like, oh, this is the way my brain works. I thought that my brain was broken. But it just, I realized that it processes differently. And so one of the ways in which my ADD shows up is if I try to type something, my mind moves so much faster than I can type that then I lose my train of thought, I get frustrated. And what I've become. I've begun to realize that voice is actually for me, such a natural interface that it allows me to process at the speed of thought. Now, because I don't have to type in, it's just unlocked so much more for me. And so I think there's also— We talk about this exploration of consciousness, but I also think that these tools can really help those that are neurodivergent in certain ways to be able to process in a way that feels more natural.

Dan Shipper (00:51:37)

I think it reveals neurodivergence quote unquote that maybe we wouldn't even have thought of as being neurodivergence, like the processing speech better than text is not a category that people get help for, or a lot of everyone's coding now, right? And a lot of the people that are that are that are vibe coding like maybe they just didn't really have a lot of patience for the building-block abstractions of programming. But now that you don't really need to worry about what an if statement is as much like they can code like it fills in all those gaps and it and you're saying it unlocks all this stuff or even for me, I fell off my scooter in Panama and so my wrist is all messed up and I can't type, but I'm talking to you right now and it's really interesting because I feel like I'm cheating. It's so much easier to write in certain ways.

Steve Schlafman (00:52:34)

It's so much easier. It's so much easier.

Dan Shipper (00:52:38)

And also my writing is different like my writing voice when I'm speaking is different from my writing voice when I'm typing. And I actually like the vocal quality of it. And so it's an interesting thing to try to lean into a little bit as stylistically. So it's very cool.

Steve Schlafman (00:52:55)

What I've been doing because I love to write. And hearing you really lean into writing that lit me up because as I've been thinking about the next iteration of Downshift, I’m like, that's all I want to do. And I still work with Rachel as my editor. So I work with ChatGPT in certain ways. I still work with a human editor, but I will often write the outline and the shitty first draft is handwritten. I love handwriting because it's so unfiltered. And then what I'll do is I'll read it out loud and then I'll fill in gaps as i'm reading it and it becomes this organic process where I’ve written by hand slow process then i get into this flow as I’m reading it out loud and adding and adjusting and and then instructing and then I get a high-fidelity first draft that is so great that then I share with rachel and then that kicks off the process.

Dan Shipper (00:54:02)

That's very cool. That's very cool. I'm excited to see what you write.

Steve Schlafman (00:54:08)

Yeah. Well, you should check out my last few pieces. They've been great.

Dan Shipper (00:54:14)

I will do that. Yeah. Well, this has been amazing. Definitely expected but unexpected, the wild and weird places we went in this conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing with us and for people who want to learn more about you and about your work and about Downshift, where can they find you?

Steve Schlafman (00:54:35)

Yeah, they can find me at schlaf.co. Or the work that we're doing at Downshift at Downshift.me.

Dan Shipper (00:54:47)

Amazing. Thanks for coming on.

Steve Schlafman (00:54:48)

Yeah. And one last point—you can feel free to edit it in or not, but I do believe that the coaching and the therapy world is going to get so massively disrupted from AI. I don't think it's gonna be human to human experiences, is. But it's going to be a highly premium product and it's going to be much more experiential.

Dan Shipper (00:55:19)

Which is what it kind of started as and then we were like well, we have to kind of make it broadly available and then we have to manualize it and what and and then all that didn't really work and yeah, I think that yeah, I agree with you.

Steve Schlafman (00:55:32)

So it's going to be fascinating to see how this all unfolds, but it's going to be profound. It's really going to be profound.

Dan Shipper (00:55:40)

Well, I'm excited. 

Steve Schlafman (00:55:42)

Yeah, this was fun.

Thanks to Scott Nover for editorial support.

Dan Shipper is the cofounder and CEO of Every, where he writes the Chain of Thought column and hosts the podcast AI & I. You can follow him on X at @danshipper and on LinkedIn, and Every on X at @every and on LinkedIn.

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